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"what is ableism" episode 51 of arthritis life podcast, contains pictures of both hosts
Blog, Podcast

What is Ableism?

November 30, 2021
56 min read
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Exploring Ableism with Lene Anderson

On episode 51 of the Arthritis Life Podcast, Cheryl Crow and Lene Anderson discuss ableism, or discrimination against disabled people.

Lene shares her unique experiences as someone who uses a power wheelchair for mobility due to Juvenile Idiopathic Arthritis (JIA) and as someone who has deeply studied social work and the social model of disability.
Cheryl and Lene explore ableism and share ways to dismantle your own internalized ableism.

Trigger warning: brief discussion of assisted suicide between minute 46:50 – 48:10. 

Episode at a glance:

  • 0:00 – 3:25: Lene’s journey with juvenile idiopathic arthritis from diagnosis at age 9 to using a power wheelchair starting at age 16 to now
  • 3:25 – 10:40: What is ableism, and how does it relate to other forms of descrimination such as racism or sexism?
  • 10:40 – 17:51 – What is health privilege?
  • 17:51 – 24:30 –  What is internalized ableism and how might it manifest in a person with chronic illness?
  • 24:30 – 30:00  – How to dismantle internalized ableism: disentangling worth from productivity, not being ashamed to use mobility aids or daily living aids
  • 30:00 – 34:50 – How Lene is not “wheelchair bound” but in fact a wheelchair is liberating and a helpful tool for everyday life
  • 34:50 – 41:00 – The social model of disability and how external barriers are often more limiting to quality of life than the disability itself
  • 41:00 – 46:50: The differences between living with an invisible versus visible disability
  • 46:50 – 48:10: TRIGGER WARNING (suicide): Brief discussion of assisted suicide as it relates to disability 
  • 48:10 – 52:50 – How the tropes of disabled people in media (movies, books) are often incredibly over simplified 
  • 52:50 – 55:30:  What does it mean to have a “dynamic disability” with fluctuating symptoms?
  • 55:30 – end: Universal design versus accessibility

Speaker Bios:

Lene (pronounced Lena) is an award-winning writer and rheumatoid arthritis advocate living in Toronto, Canada. Born and raised in Denmark, Lene has had autoimmune arthritis since childhood and has used a power wheelchair since her teens. She has a Masters Degree in Social Work and writes books about living well with RA and other types of chronic illness. Lene shares her home with a cat and too many books.  

Cheryl Crow is an occupational therapist who has lived with rheumatoid arthritis for seventeen years. Her life passion is helping others with rheumatoid arthritis figure out how to live a full life despite arthritis, by developing tools to navigate physical, emotional and social challenges. She formed the educational company Arthritis Life in 2019 after seeing a huge need for more engaging, accessible, and (dare I say) FUN patient education and self-management resources.

Episode Sponsor

Rheumatoid Arthritis Roadmap, a self-paced online course Cheryl created that teaches you how to confidently manage your physical, social and emotional life with rheumatoid arthritis. 

Episode links:

Join the waitlist for Rheum to THRIVE,  6-month education and support program Cheryl created to help people with rheumatic disease go from overwhelmed, confused and alone to confident, supported and connected. The next group starts in Spring 2022!

Rheumatoid Arthritis Roadmap, a self-paced online course Cheryl created that teaches you how to confidently manage your physical, social and emotional life with rheumatoid arthritis. 

Medical disclaimer: 

All content found on Arthritis Life public channels was created for generalized informational purposes only. The content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

Full Episode Transcript:

Episode 51: Arthritis Life Podcast

[Introductory music]

Hi! My name is Cheryl Crow, and I am passionate about helping people navigate real life with arthritis. I’ve lived with rheumatoid arthritis for 17 years and I’m also a mom, teacher, and occupational therapist. I’m so excited to share my tricks for managing the ups and downs of life with arthritis. Everything from kitchen life hacks, and how to respond when people say, “You don’t look sick”, stress, work, sex, anxiety, fatigue, pregnancy, and parenting with chronic illness — no topic will be off limits here. I’ll also talk to other patients and share their stories and advice. Think of this as your chance to sit down and chat with a friend who’s been there. Ready to figure out how to manage your arthritis life? Let’s get started. 

Cheryl:  I’m so excited to have Lene Andersen today. Welcome to the Arthritis Life Podcast again.

Lene:  Thank you so much for having me back. I must have done something right the first time.

Cheryl:  Yeah, I can’t believe it was actually a year ago. It seems like —

Lene: Oh, was it?

Cheryl:  Yeah, it wasn’t that long ago. But um, yeah, let’s just — for those who didn’t hear your wonderful episode about preparing for the holidays with chronic illness, can you give a little brief introduction of you and your JIA quote-unquote, ‘story’, ‘life story’?

Lene:  Life story. Well, it is, yeah, I got to do the really short version because been going on for a while. I developed the first symptoms of juvenile idiopathic arthritis back in the days when it was called juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. And I was four-years-old, but didn’t actually get diagnosed until I was nine. This was back in the, in what I not fondly called the ‘Dark Age of Rheumatology’. And that means there was no treatment. Well, those steroids, which is not great, there was gold injections, and I couldn’t tolerate them. And I think — and then there was aspirin for pain. It was even before the age of NSAIDs, anti-inflammatory medication. I still remember the first time I took this trial drug that nobody had heard of before. And in the miracle that is an anti-inflammatory medication that just treated the symptoms. So, because there was no treatment, I spent a lot of time at hospitals. And I actually ended up with like dual — like, double hip replacements and a power wheelchair by the time I was 16. So, I’ve been a wheelchair user for a very long time. I have — I’m one of the, you know, the old veterans kind of thing of people with RA. And I do call myself someone with RA, because my, the expression of my condition is very similar to RA even though technically, I’m considered an adult with JIA, but it was called juvenile idio — juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, because back then it was thought to just be the same condition, just juvenile, but they are actually different conditions. It’s very confusing. Hi, I’ve had JIA for a long time. So, you know.

Cheryl:  No, and that’s — yeah, that’s part of our identities too, that like what we call the, you know, our conditions is important. So, that’s a helpful distinction. Because I’ve had the — I’ve had the same question with people who were diagnosed children with JIA or JRA and then are adults now who identity — you know, who identify as having rheumatoid arthritis. So yeah, that’s super helpful. And yes, for those who don’t know, Lene mentioned, she’s in a power wheelchair. That’s electronic kind versus like, you might see people like doing sports and stuff in the, in the —

Lene:  Yeah, and the people who, if you can propel yourself, put your hands on the wheels, that’s called a manual chair. I can’t do that. Thank you very much, RA. So, I use a power wheelchair, I have a joystick, you know, and that drives me on everywhere. I should also mention that I live in Canada in Toronto, and that I’m originally from Denmark.

Cheryl:  Right. Thank you. Yeah, those are important, important tidbits. But today, we’re gonna talk about ableism. What is your definition of ableism? Or how do you explain it to people who don’t know?

Lene:  I think it was what’s interesting is it’s becoming more known, but a lot of people still don’t know what it is. And it’s basically — the short version is, you know what racism is, this is the same, but against disabled people. It’s basically actions, words, or attitude that devalue and limit the potential of people with disabilities.

Cheryl:  That’s very succinct. Yeah. And that’s, I think that that’s a helpful analogy to use the example of racism and say, okay, yeah, the things — like, would you say the things that you say to a disabled person, would you say those things to someone of a minority racial group? If you wouldn’t, it’s probably ableist.

Lene:  Well, and it’s kind of, I call it the D-test. It’s like because, and we’re gonna dig into this in deeper, because it isn’t really like acknowledgement or an awareness that ableism exists, people with disabilities — and that affects people with chronic illness too even though you may not identify as disabled — but we’re asked to suck up an awful lot of things. And so, when I have the D-test, when somebody tells me I’m overreacting, I said, “Okay, so if that happened — say, for instance, if access to a fancy hotel for women, or for people more racially —” BIPOC people, sorry, it’s the terminology. I kind of went like, no, racial minorities, not the right word anymore. 

Cheryl:  Right, sorry, I didn’t — I didn’t see that wrong.

Lene:  Yeah, no, but I’m like, that’s kind of where I’ve expressed it that way for a long time. but we have moved on to BIPOC, so. 

Cheryl:  Right, right. 

Lene: So, “If somebody was BIPOC or a woman, if they were only allowed to go into a hotel through the back entrance, would that be a problem?” And if you think it’s a problem for another group, then guess what. It’s the problem for somebody who is disabled as well.

Cheryl:  Yeah, I think that’s so true. And it can be so — there’s a lot of like overt examples, like, you know, saying like, “Your life is less valuable because you use a wheelchair,” like, that’s an obvious one. But there’s also so many subtle examples. Can you think of any like subtle, or do you have any subtle ones that come to mind? Well, that wasn’t on our list, I just thought I’d ask.

Lene: Well, it’s like… Cheryl kindly sent me questions before and I kind of sat there and said, okay, there are so many, I can’t pick one. But I think, I think something like, let’s talk about remote work, because that’s something a lot of people have done in the pandemic. The ability to work remotely is something that many people in the disabled community has been asking for, for, you know, decades. And it’s always been denied. Because, “No, it’s important that you are there. And if you can’t be there, then you can’t work here.” And then the pandemic happened and able-bodied people needed to work remotely. And guess what? It was instituted almost overnight. And it’s now to the point that I think a lot of people who are working or those who can work remotely are saying, “Yeah, like this is, this is a must for any future work I do.” Which is hopefully why this opportunity will continue for people with disabilities, even though we are seeing it being walked back already now that we don’t need it, because it’s going to kill people. Then it’s like, “No, you must come in again.” So, ableism is alive and well.

Cheryl:  Yeah, no, that’s true. The other one I think of is — and this came up really recently with a famous actor Chris Pratt — he, and it came up — it’s not just him. It’s the idea that, and I heard this a lot when I was pregnant, “As long as it’s healthy…” you know, and it’s funny because my sister, my sister’s a NICU nurse, and she deals with babies that are extremely sick and sometimes that die from health issues. And that is a horrible tragedy. No one, no one wants their child to be very sick and no one wants their child to die. But when you say things like, “As long as it’s healthy,” as if like, it’s going to be a terrible thing if your child isn’t 100% perfectly healthy, it kind of feels as a person with a disability, like you’re saying that my life is —

Lene:  I think it depends and like everybody has a different perspective on this, and yes, there is — there is very much the perception that health is the ideal and part of me wants to say of course it is. Of course it is. But we also want to talk about why that is and of course, but for those who don’t know what happened was that Chris Pratt recently — he’s an actor, if you’re a Jurassic Park fan, you know him or Jurassic World, rather — he recently had a child and sent out an Instagram message, I think, thanking his wife for bringing him — you know, for giving him a healthy beautiful child. And aside from the sexism inherent in, you know, the woman giving him a child, what people took issue with what’s the fact that he also has a child with a previous, from a previous relationship, who does live with some form of disability. I don’t know what it is. And I think that’s what people especially remarked on. And part of me said it’s like, it’s the normal joy of any new parents in saying ‘healthy kid’ because that is what we all want. Because no parent wants their child to go through the extra difficulties of having an illness or disability. And I think it’s okay to be grateful for that as long as you are aware that, you know, disability is the one thing that can affect anyone at any time. But I think it was the part where he said that, had already having being the father of a disabled child, that made people really upset and I got it. And part of me kind of went — I know he’s just a happy new dad who said something and didn’t think about it. And the other part of me went, you know dude, you live in the public eye… So maybe be careful.

Cheryl:  Yeah, yeah. I think the context is everything. Like you said, there’s nothing wrong with being happy that you had a healthy child. But if you also, like you mentioned, have a child with a disability and was born premature. And again, anyone who’s had a premature child or child with a health condition doesn’t take health for granted anymore. But at the same time, yeah, it was an interesting situation, but it’s part of a larger context of this idea of, you know, health being the default, you know.

Lene:  The norm, it’s normal.

Cheryl:  The norm. Like you wouldn’t say —

Lene:  Like to have a normal child. 

Cheryl:  You wouldn’t say like, “As long as my baby’s white…” like, that would just be awful. Yeah. And I think the other thing — I didn’t prepare you for this, so sorry — but it just came back to my mind is, you know, in the same way that’s associated with, you know, the word ‘racism’ is the idea of privilege. Like, privilege doesn’t mean you’re doing anything wrong. But you have to be aware of your privilege. I think something that I have really started noticing is the idea of ‘health privilege’ that people who are, you know, 100% able-bodied, however you choose to measure that, you know, they do have a degree of privilege over people who have health conditions. And there’s this interesting line that can be drawn because sometimes people do take actions in their life like exercise or following a certain diet that helps their health. But so, the step one is like, okay, acknowledging like, I go running, like I used to run every day, and I ate healthy, and then I got rheumatoid arthritis. But someone else who runs and eats healthily is thinking to themselves, “Well, the fact that I do these things is the reason that I am not ever —” Do you know what I mean?

Lene:  Well, and there is an interesting — actually, I’m reading a really interesting book right now called Quarantine Life, and I can’t remember the author, but look it up. It’s wonderful. And the author talks a lot about how — like, the expectations of getting people to all acts on the community where — and I’m going to pick on your country for a moment, but the US is founded on individual grit. And the concept that if you pull yourself up by your bootstraps, anyone has the possibility to make it. And that has translated into health in the sense that you have an individual responsibility for health, which I think — and then there’s this whole idea that if you just, you said, eat right and exercise and do the right thing, you’re protected. Except you’re not. But I think that it was a very interesting point that sort of made me go, “Oh, I think I understand better now,” that when you then enter a pandemic where the individual, each individual for their own is responsible for their own health to then expect people who have grown up in that culture to then see that now they’re responsible for other people’s health. So, it was kind of an interesting concept. But yes, like, we do have this whole idea that — and it’s not isolated to the US, of course — but we have an idea that we take our bodies for granted, we take our ability to keep going for granted, because most of the time we’re not aware of all the work that goes into keep doing whatever you want until all of a sudden you can’t, whether you get the flu, or you get sick more often, and chronic illness, then all of a sudden you become aware of wait and body’s aren’t magic.

Cheryl:  No, and it’s like, it’s happened a lot with the pandemic. I mean, if anything, the pandemic should make everyone confront the fact that, you know, none of your health promoting behaviors are 100% guaranteed, right. But you’ll say, “Oh, well, you know, this person, they were, you know, a 30-year-old weightlifter and they got COVID and now they have severe post-COVID syndrome,” or, “They died,” and everyone’s like shocked because like wait, it challenges their worldview to realize that nothing protects you sometimes, or nothing is guaranteed to protect you. 

Lene:  Well, and I think this is a psychological term called ‘cognitive dissonance’ that says in the face of, when people continue to believe something in the face of proof otherwise, people still go, “Well that happened to me, but that won’t hap — that happened to that person and it won’t happen to me.” So, it just persists. Like, it’s a difficult thing to wrap your head around when you are so used to — and I think seeing and feeling obvious proof that if you eat well, and you exercise, you get stronger and feel better. And that, that counts for most people. And even when you have a chronic illness, if you have the means and ability to eat healthy, you’re likely to feel a bit better, but maybe not all the way.

Cheryl:  Yeah, yeah. And I want to circle back. I forgot to clarify this earlier. But for those who might not have known what you were talking about when you said the D-tax, you meant — 

Lene:  The D-test. 

Cheryl:  Oh, the D-test. The Disability Test. Sorry, I thought you were saying ‘tax’ like you’re taxed for having a disability. Test. Okay. Okay. So, the D-test.

Lene:  Yeah, that’s what I call it because I am unimaginative. I’m sure I could get a better name for it. But the D stands for both Disability and Discrimination. So, it’s a double D, but that sounds vaguely sexual, so lets not go there.

Cheryl:  The DD-Test, yeah. That’s so helpful, no. And the other thing I want to do really quickly is read the definition of ableism from a really great website I’m going to put in the show notes called StopAbleism.org. But they define ableism as a set of practices and beliefs that assign inferior value or worth to people who have developmental, emotional, physical, or psychiatric disabilities. And furthermore — I thought this part was really interesting — an ableist society is said to be one that treats non-disabled individuals as the standard of normal living which results in public and private places and services, education, and social work that are built to serve standard people, thereby inherently excluding those with various disabilities. End quote. I thought that was a helpful definition again, because it’s not something that we end up, you know, fortunately, nowadays, we do learn about, you know, ableism — or I mean racism in school, hopefully, actually not —

Lene:  Depending on what state you’re in.

Cheryl:  Sorry. I’m in a very liberal, I grew up in a very liberal suburb of Seattle. But no, it’s true. Not everyone does. But you know, people might have heard it more frequently than ableism. So, yeah.

Lene:  Well, and I think it also speaks to the fact that just like racism, and we have had a really intense education in racism in over the last two years and it’s a welcome one, because I think it pushed a lot of people further down the road to being more equitable. But I think it’s also important to acknowledge that, as that definition just read out, talks about its systemic ableism. It is built into — like ableism is built into every structure in our world. And legislation to create equality for disability or create accessibility is really welcome but often a Band-Aid because like you can’t fix a systemic practice. You can begin to fix it. but you need much more. Like when the norm is ability, then anything you do for accessibility and inclusivity for, that becomes automatically seen as sort of a special. And I think the goal in fighting ableism is to integrate accessibility and make it the norm, which is a big task.

Cheryl:  Absolutely. Yeah. And I think the other thing that has come up a lot over the last year and a half of — as I’ve done my support groups for people with rheumatic diseases — is internalized ableism. That when you have, especially when you’re recently diagnosed, but even in waves, you know, many years after, confronting what your own internalized beliefs that you’ve developed over time that, you know, again, yeah, like health, being healthy is the norm or the desired — again, it is desired to be healthy, but the I’m worse because I have a health condition. And do you have any thoughts about how people can confront their own internalized ableism or how you —

Lene:  Start to dismantle it?

Cheryl:  Dismantle it, yes! I was like, such a good word.

Lene:  Um, I think it’s like one of the, one of the most obvious signs — well, there’s two when I think about it, of internalized ableism and also externalized stigma — is I know a lot of women who have joint changes in the hands, and are ashamed of that, and will hide their hands or stop wearing nail polish or stop wearing rings as not bring attention to the hands. That right there, that’s internalized ableism, that if your hands look different. Like, I’m a big fan — and I don’t know if it’s because I had like, I prefer the word joint changes to deformities by the way.

Cheryl:  Me too.

Lene:  Yeah, deformities is icky. That’s another D word I don’t like. But it’s like I’ve had, as you can see, my — I don’t know if you can see it for the blur, but I’ve had joint changes since I was very young. And it has never stopped me from wearing rings or putting on funky neon color, and I think it’s — I don’t know what, maybe it was because it happened when I was young. But I think when all of a sudden, your fingers go from looking quote-unquote ‘normal’ to not, then it’s like yes, by all means, be upset that you have visible signs of your illness. But on the other hand, be ashamed of that? Like, shame is a sign that you’ve done something really — well no, guilt is a sign that you’ve done something wrong. Shame is a sign that you feel that you are wrong. There’s nothing wrong with anything, you know. You’re not hurting anyone. This is a condition that you can’t control with the powers of your mind. And there is real empowerment in wearing that funky ring or painting your nails blue for, you know, I do that for Arthritis Awareness Month. And so, that’s a big thing. But I think the internalized — and another big role in the internalized ableism forest is the association of worth with productivity. And we’re seeing it being challenged quite a lot in, I think especially, and I’m gonna sound so old now, the younger generation. Like, the — what’s the one that’s after millennials?

Cheryl:  Generation Z? Generation X? No, no, yeah. There’s X, millennials, then Z.

Lene:  Well, see, I’m in in Canada. So, I would say Generation Z, but whatever, we mean the same thing. But I think for a while hustle culture was so much of like, hustle culture was just like you had to have a full-time job, and you have to have a side hustle, and you have to do this. And I love that the next generation is coming up and saying in reaction to that and saying, “No, my worth is not my productivity.” So, you might see a lot of conversation about capitalism and productivity. And yes, it is very much linked to our economic model. But this whole sense of that ‘you are only worth something if you’re productive’, and it’s something I’m struggling a lot with — because I think there’s a line somewhere. I like getting stuff done. And some of that is because I like getting stuff done. Because I have always moved fast. But some of that is because I feel like I only have worth and value if I get stuff done. And starting to kind of question that in yourself, like this dismantling that, takes a lot of time. And it takes a lot of thinking. There’s another book that is on my to-read list. It’s called ‘There’s no such thing as lazy, the laziness lie’ I’ll let you know so you can link it. I can’t remember the title exactly, that I haven’t read yet. But I really want to start dismantling that. And this is the exact same thing as learning how to dismantle your systemic racism. And as you start reading about it, you start questioning. You put that funky nail polish on and you give yourself permission to rest and you start saying like, I think the overdue, you know, the ‘overdue and crash cycle’ that so many people with chronic illness have, that’s an expression of internalized ableism, aside from the fact that there’s stuff you need to get done. But that’s one thing because we all have the administrivia of life. But then there is the impulse to get it all done in one day when you know you can’t, and when you know it’ll lead to a crash. Slowing down and telling people it’s like, “No, I can’t meet that deadline,” or, “No, I’m not available,” it kind of takes back control of your life and allows you to give yourself permission to live your life today, the way you need to do when you have a partner that has chronic illness. And it may not be quote-unquote ‘normal’ or it may not be on the speed of what everybody else expects, which by the way has increased since the Internet. We now want everything now; whereas, I still remember working back in the day, pre-Internet, intra-Net, in an office where, you know, if you have a memo, you put it in an envelope and it got sent out and someone would get it the next day, and then they will take a while to get back to you. It’s fine. It’s fine. The world will not end. 

Cheryl:  No. 

Lene:  So, I think those are some of the ways you can start kind of challenging your own panic, I guess?

Cheryl: Yes, yes.

Lene:  Because it feels like a panic when — and it feels like the shame, the worthlessness, the everything if you don’t get the dishes done today, but is the world really gonna drown? And that sort of helps me a little.

Cheryl:  Yeah. And you mentioned like mobility aids, which is — or you mentioned like, not wanting to use, you know, not wanting to do anything that is a physical manifestation of your, what’s often for people diagnosed recently, more a hidden disease for people who don’t have the joint changes yet. I think that that’s one that’s come up a lot, people saying, “I know that I need —” let’s say going — I mean, this is a little bit out of date, but going to Disneyland, I mean, some people are still going to Disneyland, but you know, going somewhere public and knowing that you need a motorized scooter, even if you’re not a power wheelchair user, typically. But when you have a long distances you need to cover it’s just not sustainable for some people to have the endurance. But they’ll say, “Well, I don’t want to have to use that.” And I think it’s complex, it’s not just internalized ableism. I think there’s also a lot of people that fall into this, like doughnut hole, like the middle of the doughnut hole, where it’s like, I’m not fully able-bodied and I’m not fully disabled. I’m like somewhere in that like messy middle, where I maybe, maybe, if I just tried harder, I could walk all the way around Disneyland, you know, that kind of thing. But whether it’s, you know, using like, I’ve gotten all these comments, I’m thinking about just general aids for daily living, you know. As an occupational therapist, I’m very like, pragmatic about them. I don’t feel shame. That’s kind of my problem, actually, it’s a blessing and a curse. But no, I don’t feel a lot of shame with them. Like, I’m like, this is great. I get to use this cool jar opener. But I’ve noticed that’s unusual. A lot of people do feel shame, or they go through a stage where they feel shame. I don’t want to have to, I’m only 20, I don’t want to have to be like quote-unquote ‘the grandma’. Well, that’s ageism already, saying it’s worse to be a grandma.

Lene:  That’s a lot of -isms.

Cheryl:  Yeah, a lot -isms. But you know, saying, “Oh, I don’t want to have to use this,” you know, and learning that, oh, the world keeps turning, you know, if I use these, and I feel better if I use them, so. And the other one you said is that — or you started talking about is this idea that like, my life is over. Like, when I get this diagnosis, my life is over, particularly if I don’t cure or heal it. And that’s — and I mention this like practically every episode — but it’s a trap that so many newly diagnosed people fall into of like, “Okay, well, I got diagnosed with this bad thing,” and, again, I don’t wish the diagnosis on anyone, if I had a choice whether or not to have it, I would obviously choose not to, but it doesn’t mean my life is over. And it doesn’t mean that I must cure or heal it at all costs, otherwise, my life is meaningless. And that’s a really dangerous road to go down. There are people who have been able to take actions that they feel in their experience have resulted in them, you know, maybe not needing medication or something like that. But that doesn’t mean that the people who need to take the medicines or don’t feel 100% all the time, that their — what, that their life is like totally pointless. So anyway, and the third one I wanted to mention is one actually, and I’ll just be honest, because I’m very like, upfront with people. You know, I didn’t actually call him out on this episode, because I only had like 35 minutes with him. But Dr. Micah Yu, very casually, he’s a rheumatologist and also does a lot of integrative medicine and integrative health, and these ableist things are very predominant in those spaces at times. And he said, “Well, no one wants to be on medication,” and I wanted to say, “Well, actually, yeah, I do.” Because I know like, you know, what it — or I imagine what it was like, you were mentioning earlier to circle back to your introduction, what it was like before there were any effective medications. Like, medications are why I’m able to do a lot of what I want to do.

Lene:  Well, to be quite honest, I don’t want to take medication. But I know what my life is like without it. Like, if I had a magic wand I would love to be, to not be sick but I think it’s the pragmatism is important because it’s like, of course I don’t want to take medication but if nothing else helps, guess what? 

Cheryl:  Yeah.

Lene:  It makes me — it is a tool. I think there it’s again like the Chris Pratt conversation. I think it’s dual sided because yes, I would prefer not to have all the weird side effects because I’m a side effect magnet. But I also remember what my life was like before I had a medication that works, and I like to call myself the worst-case scenario, case scenario of RA. Because the worst-case scenario because I am sort of the example of what very severe disease does to people without treatment. But at the same time, I’m the example of what finding a medication that works can do; it will not undo the damage. But I live my life now, right, and I see it as a miracle because I spent most of my life without meds and finding something that takes away that level of suffering is mind boggling still to me. But I also think that — and this reminded me of this whole ‘nobody wants to take medication’ and seeing the as meds as a tool. And it also has to be a tool that works. If it’s a tool that makes you feel just as bad as you did without it, then you need another tool. But also, mobility aids or doodads, because you’re the Queen of the Doodads, it’s a tool. And you use tools all the time to do things better. You use a car so you don’t have to walk 40 miles to work every day. And for me, something like a mobility — let’s take a wheelchair, let’s go all the way there. I have no idea how many times I’ve heard in my life is like, “Oh, you know, like, you’re so inspiring. I’d rather kill myself than lose the use of my legs.” Yeah, people have said that to me, or words to that effect. And like I always kind of say, like that just shows a lack of imagination if you can only imagine your life walking, then you’re the one with the problem. But there’s a systemic issue to that too. But —

Cheryl:  Wow. I can’t believe they would say it to your face. I’m sorry. 

Lene:  Oh, yeah. 

Cheryl:  Why am I still surprised? I still get surprised.

Lene:  Ableism, my friends. Ableism. But I also think that we can go down the wrong rabbit hole of inspiration porn, and how that feeds that, “Oh, my God, you got out of bed, you’re still breathing.” But let me finish the tool. I think one of the things that’s problematic with a wheelchair, and I see a lot of people both in terms of they don’t want to be a wheelchair user — and we’ll get to why that happens to people, like why people have that feeling in a second — but you also see doctors, like I’ve talked to people where their doctors will not authorize their wheelchair because they want them to keep going. And I’m like, oh, you’re kidding me. Because a wheelchair is a tool that helps you conserve energy, reduce pain, and live your life. So, to your point about going to Disneyland or going to the mall where there’s a lot of walking, if you could have that experience without being exhausted and in the kind of pain that requires you to rest for two weeks afterwards, you imagine how much less energy you would have left to have fun or to live your life or to go shopping on your own or whatever. Like I’m lucky I found an apartment in downtown Toronto, so in a fairly accessible area. So, I could do almost all of it myself. I could get out there, I do my own grocery shopping, I, you know, I go for walks in the neighborhood and all of that. And that’s not something I would be able to do without my wheelchair. And then we get to the terminology about ‘wheelchair bound’ or ‘confined to a wheelchair’. No way. I’m liberated by my wheelchair without it, I’d be confined to that. And I think once you start seeing it as this is a tool that saves me energy, reduces pain, whatever it does, so you can do the life part of life with a disability, life with a chronic illness, and just kind of switching that. But it is dismantling your — the ableism. Which brings me to my next point. I should probably let you participate in this.

Cheryl:  Oh, my gosh, no. I went on the longest rant right before this. So no, keep going.

Lene:  Okay.

Cheryl:  It’s just — your answer, I was just gonna ask that, because as you said, I so often hear people tell me that the thing that convinced them to try biologic medications, for example, was that their doctor said, “Well, if you don’t take these, you might end up in a wheelchair,” like cue the music. Dun dun dun. Like, you know. And again, it’s not saying that life is easier in a wheelchair than it is without one unless you’re — there’s multiple ups and downs of both. But the point is, I wondered how it felt to you to hear those things in the community like, oh —

Lene:  I think, like on some level, again, there’s always — sometimes I hate being the kind of person who can see the shades of grey in everything. But.

Cheryl:  Oh, my gosh. Story of my life too. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Lene:  But I think, yeah, like it’s a short form for saying, “If you don’t take — try this medication, you will have irreversible damage that will severely limit your life and your ability to live it.” That’s true. But a wheelchair being used as a, you know, as the Big Bad or the Bugaboo or the, you know, the Monster, is — like, there two layers to this. There is there is the — and really, people don’t want to, of course, like, if I could walk, of course I would rather walk. Like, let’s not get — let’s, let’s like — I am fine being disabled. I have been disabled for a long time. This is not a problem to me. But what makes it a problem is — and the wonderful Stella Young an Australian disability advocate who’s now no longer alive — because she was awesome. She did a TED talk that you should all watch. But she talked about the social definition of disability where that I have a disability because the environment around me is not accessible. Because it has barriers. If there were no barriers around me, I would not have the same level of disabilities. So, it’s a function of how inaccessible and how ableist society is because accessibility is not the norm, you still have to ask for it constantly. And people can say ‘No’. They, it becomes something you have to beg for and which is wrong. When all human rights legislation says that you have a right to equal treatment, it’s the implementation that’s iffy. So, of course you don’t want to end up in a wheelchair because it sucks. And not because of the ‘no walking’ thing. But because the world and the people around you are geared to discriminate against you.

Cheryl:  Yeah, you described — I mean, that makes perfect sense to me. And the other thing, little nuance, that I’ve noticed is in my spinal cord rehabilitation internship — this is going to relate, I promise — but spinal cord rehab usually, a lot of it is training people on how to, you know, which is fitting them for an appropriate wheelchair, training on daily tasks, like getting, you know, getting clothes on when you are paralyzed, which is a different situation. Being paralyzed is different than rheumatoid arthritis. But the point of this was that we — I’m trying to figure out how to say this shorter. There are different kinds of spinal cord injuries. So, one that people think of as the kind of the extreme case is a complete spinal cord transection where you don’t have any sensation or feeling at the level below the injury. So, like you can’t, like, you may be able to move your trunk and your arms completely, but you can’t move your legs. And you’re in a wheelchair, but you’re propelling it and you’re able to completely live into it. 

Lene:  Paraplegic. You’re saying a paraplegic. 

Cheryl:  Yeah, paraplegic, exactly. So, they were also — there are also, though, injuries that are actually like partial. And one of them is called central cord syndrome. And what it is, it actually is the opposite of being paraplegic. It is where you can’t use your hands and your arms very well, but you can walk. And in general, for daily life function, people’s default assumption is, “If my hands didn’t work very well, oh well, but I can still walk. But if I couldn’t walk, everything would suck.” And I’m saying just from my observation, doesn’t mean — I don’t want to minimize anyone’s lived experience. If your lived experience is different, that’s different for you. But in general, because our hands are so important for function, I was, personally after witnessing these kinds of injuries, I would rather have complete paralysis in my legs than lose the function of my hands. And because — and that’s just — so, people have these assumptions again, “If I couldn’t walk, everything would be over.” It’s actually much more complicated than that. Does that make sense?

Lene:  Well, it always is. But I also think that we are encouraged to compare ourselves. Like, how many times have you talked to somebody who says, “Oh, well, there are other people who have it worse than me. So therefore, I shouldn’t complain.” I’m not a big fan of that, because first of all that, comparing it, it either lifts you up against somebody else’s misery, but it also pushes other people down. But more than that, it’s all about the context of your life. Because if you used to be — if you used to run every day and you used to swing dance as I know you did, and you then can’t do that, or if you can’t wash the bathtub anymore, that’s important. You have a right to be upset about that. But you also have a right to ask for help in some way. And I think that’s another ableist issue, is that it’s even seen as shameful to ask for help. Yet when you look at it, how many of us spend at least part of our life helping others and sort of enjoying it, whether it’s volunteerism or advocacy or helping a neighbor who just had a child or whatever, right? Like, we — people like to help because it makes them feel like they’re actually making an impact. So, but the minute you get — the minute you need the help, you have trouble asking for it. So, it’s kind of, it’s weird, right? So. So, I generally tend to say it’s like, well, there might be some, for some people, walking is the most important thing; for other people, it’s the ability to use the hands. I’m not gonna tell you — I will tell you, I’ve gotten used to things I’d never thought I’d be used to. The human, human beings are hardwired to adapt. And I think, don’t underestimate your own ability to create a beautiful life in and around whatever your limitation is.

Cheryl:  That’s like, I want that on my bumper sticker. I love it, like in a positive way. I mean, that isn’t — I realize people use — I didn’t realize for a long-time people use that phrase as like, “Oh, that’s just a bumper sticker phrase.” I’m like, no, bumper sticker phrases are good. Like, they’re what you remember. Yeah. And that’s so true. And I know, you’re really, you’re thinking like an OT, I would say. And I think that that’s because you have a lived experience in many ways.

Lene:  Oh, and I was trained as a social worker. So, you know.

Cheryl:  Okay, that’s — yeah, exactly. It’s like, you’re right that the context is everything. And I don’t — again, I really don’t want to feed into like, there can definitely be the disability Olympics. And I’ve gotten comments like, “You must not have RA that bad because you’re dancing,” or, “You must not have it,” and I was like, well, yeah. Like, I’m on the continuum somewhere. I’m not like the person in the world who has it like objectively the worst, and I’m not the person in the world who has it objectively the best, but I don’t want to play into that.

Lene:  No, and I think we just need to stop judging each other and ourselves all the time and having to feel we have to justify our membership in whatever club. Like, if you have a diagnosis, guess what? You’re in the club, I don’t care. Like, I know somebody who has been the lucky person who’s not severely affected, and runs and exercises and all of that. She still belongs in the club, because she has the diagnosis. And like it is, like you say, it’s a continuum. We are moving towards a world where autoimmune arthritis is increasingly invisible, which is — I never thought I’d get here. I did not think this would happen in my lifetime. And the fact that it has, I think is such a hopeful thing. But it comes with a price because, I like to say that there are real benefits to having an invisible illness. But there are also real benefits to having invisible illness because nobody questions my need for access. They may not give it to me, but they don’t question it. They don’t question the fact that I have RA. Like, you look at my fingers, I use a wheelchair, it’s obvious. And being obviously disabled comes with a whole, sorry, crapload.

Cheryl:  It’s okay. I always say that there may be swearing on this, and when I upload it, I always put it under ‘Explicit’ because I can’t remember whether we swore or not.

Lene:  But there’s a ton of stigma and discrimination. But on the other hand, when you have an invisible illness, you can ‘pass’, quote-unquote. But it means that you have to — that people don’t believe you when you need an accommodation, or to work remotely, or to, you know, whatever. Like, you have a harder time justifying your requirements. And I just, I would much rather live in a world where if somebody says, “Yeah, I have a disability, and I need this,” that you end up having to prove it. And technically, in human rights legislation, you shouldn’t have. It’s enough to self-identify. But that’s another thing. But it’s like, I do understand. Of course, people don’t want to identify as disabled, to come out and say they’re disabled or be visibly disabled, because we live in a culture that is so ableist that it doesn’t consider ableism, ableism as the norm. 

Cheryl:  Yeah.

Lene:  And these days, you have your bet that you have some sort of lock-in in calling out racism, or transphobia, or homophobia, or sexism. But ableism, people will argue that it doesn’t exist. So, that’s how ableist we are. And that’s how early in this fight we are. I hope we’ll get there to a point where this is a word that people actually know. And the more, and the more able-bodied or seemingly able-bodied allies we have, the better.

Cheryl:  Yeah. And that’s so, so helpful. And I think it comes back to the idea of privilege, like with an invisible versus visible disability. It’s like, there are privileges for me that I’m like, able-bodied passing, you know, and there are ‘unprivileged’; yeah, what are those called, disadvantages, for sure. And I think I just want to — I don’t know if I’m even gonna keep this in the podcast — but I just want to make sure I clarify, when I was talking about the spinal cord injuries that affect your hands more than your feet, I wasn’t trying to say — I wanted to try to have people challenge this notion that having a wheelchair period would be the worst case, and it doesn’t — there’s a lot more complex — and I know you know that, but just for the people listening.

Lene:  Yeah, no, and I am aware that — I’m aware of how you meant it, but I think it was a good segue for the comparison award or the disability Olympics as you said, because it’s like, some people would say, “Oh, yeah, I might be like this,” it’s like the question, “Would you rather lose your sight or your hearing,” and it’s like, can we not play this game? Can we please, can we please, because it completely depends on you. If you are an artist or like a painter or a potter or anything like that, then losing your hands would be awful. 

Cheryl:  Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

Lene:  But you can do some of that from a seated position. If you are — if you make your living as an athlete, then — or like an athlete like a soccer player, say, which is all about, you have to touch the ball.

Cheryl:  It’s kind of funny that — yeah, I could still, when my hands aren’t doing well, I now, I have a neck injury where I will not be playing soccer for probably the rest of my life, like actual playing-playing soccer. But yeah, I could still do soccer. It’s like the one sport. Sorry. Yeah. 

Lene:  Yeah, no, and it’s like it all depends on you. But even to my point is that we are — we have super powers in adapting as human beings This is how we survived as a breed — not a breed, that’s for cats. It’s how we survive. Species, yes, that’s the one. It’s how we survived as a species, we adapted. And like, it really is you can adapt to anything, almost anything, let’s say almost anything. And just give yourself some time and some resources. And I think that’s the important feature. I watched, there’s a movie called — oh, what is the movie called? It’s an older movie with Javier Bardem playing —

Cheryl:  The Sea Inside? 

Lene:  That’s the one.

Cheryl:  We are soul sisters. Like, it’s one of my favorite movies.

Lene:  Oh, we are. Well, see. So, I’m a big fan.

Cheryl:  To criticize. It’s my favorite movie to criticize. No, I’m just kidding.

Lene:  Yes and no. Like on one hand, I’m a big fan of like, let’s go to — let’s go to assisted suicide, shall we? Why not? 

Cheryl:  Okay, yeah. I’ll just put a trigger warning.

Lene:  What I think — The Sea Inside is about a Spanish fisherman who was in an accident, broke his neck, became a quadriplegic, and spent the next 20 years lying on the third floor of a farmhouse in bed and became a poet. I haven’t read, I haven’t read any of his poetry because I don’t know if it’s translated. So, I may have to learn Spanish just to read it. And he spent most of those years fighting for the right to have the help to kill himself because he was paralyzed from the neck down so he couldn’t do. And I watched the movie and it’s beautiful. And I’m a big fan of people being in charge of what they can and cannot cope with. But I remember looking at that movie and thinking, “Well, maybe if he got that accessible apartment, the right kind of wheelchair, and some attendant care in a city that wasn’t hopelessly inaccessible, maybe he wouldn’t have wanted to kill himself.”

Cheryl:  No. Yes. I thought the same thing too. Yeah. I — there was another one, Me Before You, which I despise that book and movie. I absolutely despise it because yeah, it was very inaccurate to the ways that it’s actually possible to live. I’m just mesmerized by how — I think I’m mesmerized by Javier Bardem and like anything he does.

Lene:  Oh, well, yeah, who isn’t? Who isn’t.

Cheryl:  I think I have a bias but yeah, no.

Lene:  I will watch anything from him. 

Cheryl:  Yeah, yeah.

Lene:  No, but Me Before You, see, this is also interesting because I quite like the book. Because I thought that book did a pretty good job of saying — again, this is the same old story, if somebody gets paralyzed and they kill themselves because life is not worth living. But I think it did a pretty good job of showing how the main character, she did a lot of research, she talked to other people who has spinal cord injuries. She got them to talk to this character and say like, you can have a good life. And he went, I know you can but I don’t feel I can. So, I think the book did a better job. It was still, you know, the standard ‘Somebody’s enlightenment by being around a disabled person who kills themselves’ like, Million Dollar Baby, I will rant about for hours. 

Cheryl:  Oh, I never saw that one. 

Lene:  Oh, don’t. Don’t. You will be so mad. 

Cheryl:  Oh, no.

Lene:  It’s, again, the disabled person choosing death rather than disability is the vehicle for somebody else’s journey, and it’s just nauseating. But it’s on me. Maybe for you, the book did a much better job.

Cheryl:  Yeah. I didn’t watch — I should.

Lene:  The movie is terrible.

Cheryl:  You know, I should say actually I couldn’t bring myself to watch the movie. I just hate the concept of the movie. So, I didn’t — but I read the book. I didn’t like it. But you’re right, it was more nuanced than it sounded like it would be if you read the description of the book, but…

Lene:  It’s still the same old trope, it’s that disabled people are only part of movies or books if they can be a pathetic victim, if they can choose deaths over disabled life, or if that disability is an outward representation of an inner evil. Those are the three things that we get to play and usually it’s, you know, it’s inspiration porn all over them. And it’s offensive.

Cheryl:  Did you read Karol Silverstein’s book? I had her on the podcast. It’s a young adult novel, ‘Cursed’.

Lene: I’ve heard of it. It’s on my list.

Cheryl:  Yeah, it’s really good. Because she — and she says it right upfront, like — or actually no, sorry. In the epilogue, she says it right in the end. Like no, but throughout the whole thing is that, you know, she did not want to write the disability inspiration story, especially for young adult and teenagers. That’s not how she — it’s based on her life experience. It’s not a memoir. It’s a fiction. But based on her experience, she’s like, you know, I got diagnosed with JRA, and I felt like annoyed and frustrated. And I didn’t listen to my doctors and like, I did a lot of stuff that 14-year-olds do. Like, I wasn’t like, “Okay, I’m going to go be the model,” like the same way as like a model minority. You don’t want to, you know, all these representations of like, you know, “Oh, this person was like, the model disabled person,” you know, like, “So-and-so’s in a wheelchair, but they don’t let anything stop them.”

Lene:  Oh, my God. That whole — oh, they don’t, oh, oh, oh, they don’t let anything stop them. Oh, yeah. Guess what? Guess what? Maybe if you put in some stairs, it wouldn’t stop — no, the opposite of stairs. Maybe if you didn’t put in so many damn stairs, it wouldn’t stop me. When my entire environment is built as a barrier, you get, guess what? It does stop me. And rheumatoid arthritis does stop me. 

Cheryl:  Yeah. 

Lene:  And sometimes what it doesn’t say is change how I do things. But then — and we’re back to ableism because I need to do things like this, but the world will only let me do it like this. And like, remote work, again, is a pretty good metaphor for the whole thing. 

Cheryl:  Yeah. 

Lene:  Because if I need to work from home so I don’t arrive at work exhausted after the commute, guess what? You’ll get it better and you will get better work out of me. But the whole insistence on face time just, ugh.

Cheryl:  Well, and then there’s the — there’s the one where it’s um, this was really hard for having a dynamic disability. So, people who haven’t heard this phrase, dynamic disability is a disability that where symptoms fluctuate over time. So, in a daily, hourly basis. Like, I might be in a horrible flare on Saturday, and then be feeling great on Monday morning, and then terrible again Monday afternoon, like so. But then in the culture, we don’t have a good framework for understanding that. So, people will say, “Well, you could do that yesterday. You could do — why can’t you do it today?” And that’s what employers are famous for doing that to deny people accommodations, or even — I used to work in the schools and they would say things like, “Well, Timmy could do it yesterday.” And I was like, well, great. And like you said, context is everything too. Yeah, well, today’s not yesterday, it’s a different day. A different context.

Lene:  Well, but it’s like — even able-bodied, healthy people aren’t the same from day to day. 

Cheryl:  Right. Right. 

Lene:  You know, and it’s — but I think it’s this whole insistence on, and I think we’re going back to capitalism, where it’s the ‘you’re supposed to produce like a machine day after day after day’ even as a child apparently, and nobody is like that. No person is like that because you wake up, or may wake up, with a bad allergies; or you may wake up and your child is sick; or, you know, your car breaks down or whatever. And if you have — making the world accessible to people with disabilities will make it a more flexible and better place for everyone because as we have seen, the remote work — and I keep harping on that, because it’s so perfect — remote work that we have asked for, that we have needed so, so much and haven’t gotten, which is why there’s such high unemployment rates. It’s one of the factors. Look, it benefits everyone. Everyone likes it. Well, not everyone likes it. But the people who don’t need to be on site to do something. Like, let’s take a look at what is the job, what is the task you need done, and how do you do it most effectively? And that’s often not being in an office, so.

Cheryl:  And it’s just so egregious that after everyone has been shown over the course of a year or longer that people can still do their jobs remotely, they’re still not being given that accommodation.

Lene:  They’re slowly going back to the whole ‘No, you need to be in the office’. Well, I don’t know, you survived as a business aligned with its workforce at home working remotely, and maybe even thrived. 

Cheryl:  Yeah. 

Lene:  Why? But I think it is — I had, I had a thought in my head. I forget where I was going with that.

Cheryl:  Oh no, sorry. I think I interrupted your train of thought.

Lene:  No, and I think it’s like, it’s a concept behind universal design. Universal design is different than accessibility. Accessibility kind of puts it in the, you know, the special place, for special things, for a special population. If your design per universal accessibility, which is as many people as possible can use it, it benefits something. That if you’re looking at doors that open automatically, like a door opener is a great thing. But even doors are just opening more and more doing it especially after the pandemic, is let’s get people into a building without touching anything. That helps people who are carrying packages, it helps people who broke their leg skiing, it helps parents with strollers, all of you out there who have had a stroller know how useful accessibility is. It helps so many; it provides more efficient and easier access for many more people and better use of it. So, you know? 

Cheryl:  Yeah. 

Lene:  Anyway, we could keep going.

Cheryl:  This is so good. No, this is so good. Yeah, I know. We do unfortunately need to wrap up. But well, you might be my first three piece — the first person or there’s couple that have come on twice. So, now you’re — now you might be the first one to have to come on three times.

Lene:  Do I get a medal or something?

Cheryl:  Yeah. I should start giving up badges, yeah. 

Lene:  Yeah.

Cheryl:  But is there anything else you wanted to let the audience know about ableism, or what it’s like to be a wheelchair user with rheumatoid arthritis, or anything else? Any rants?

Lene:  I think, no. I think I’ve ranted out for today. Either that or I’m so hungry for lunch that it has more of an impact. I think my overall message would be that if you don’t need — if you don’t need accessibility, ask for it anyway, because for instance, think of it this way. Like, if a store had a sign out that said that you can’t pay — people who, BIPOC people or women, can’t come in here, you would not frequent that. So, I think demanding accessibility, not only asking for it, but demanding it; when more and more people say, “Is this accessible? Do you have stairs? Can a wheelchair get around? Do you have an accessible washroom?” And you’d be surprised how many restaurants, for instance, will say yeah, we’re accessible but the washroom is in the basement. I think my point is, the more people who ask for it is important. I’m not encouraging you to engage in Canada cancel culture because our infrastructure is not yet built to that but there’s such a thing as portable ramps if you only have a couple of steps up. Ask for it. Start mentioning it, saying things like, “How do you serve people with disabilities? Does anyone know American Sign Language? That pin pad doesn’t work, or it’s too high,” etcetera. The more people who say it, the more people in business and industry etcetera, and in government understand that it’s a priority. And I think unless — people with disabilities are a very powerless group, partly because we’re busy managing our health conditions, but also because… Well, this is a subject for another day. But if you are relying on social assistance, that keeps you poor and downtrodden. But the more the world understands that this is not a niche topic, that just as you’re demanding the dismantling of racist systems, that you’re also requiring the world to be more likely to be less ableist, then something will happen. Then we will move from a place where nobody knows what ableism is to one where people will say, “Yes, of course this is accessible.”

Cheryl:  Yeah, that’s very powerful. Thank you so, so much. I can’t wait to share this with everyone.

Lene:  Thank you for having me. 

Cheryl:  Yeah. And if anyone — oh, when people want to follow you on — I’ll share your website, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. But what, do you want to just tell them what your handle is?

Lene:  In almost all places, it’s The Seated View except on Facebook, where it’s — where I didn’t think. 

Cheryl:  @LeneAndersenwriter, yeah. Yeah. 

Lene:  And my name is spelled with almost all E’s.

Cheryl:  Yeah. Oh, yeah. Andersen. That’s perfect. Yeah.

Lene:  A lot of people wonder if they get my name spelled right. They’ll just go, “Oh, Anderson. That’s -son.” No, it’s not. It’s -sen.

Cheryl:  Yes, yes. Well, thank you so much. And I look forward to hearing people’s feedback. I think this is such an important topic, and it’s one that’s going to come up again and again. So, thank you again.

Lene:  Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Ending music] 

Thank you so much for listening to today’s episode. This episode is brought to you by Rheum to THRIVE, a membership and support community where you’ll learn how to develop your own THRIVE toolbox so you can live a full life despite your rheumatic disease or chronic illness. Learn more in the show notes, or by going to www.myarthritislife.net. You can also connect with me on my social media accounts on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and even TikTok. Check out the links in the show notes.