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Patient Stories, Podcast

The Storm After the Calm: Cheryl’s Journey with Postpartum Anxiety and Rheumatoid Arthritis

January 21, 2022
59 min read
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What happens when the person who loves everything suddenly likes nothing? Arthritis Life founder and podcast host Cheryl Crow shares her rocky transition to motherhood while managing a rheumatoid arthritis flare up. 

She also opens up about her experience with symptoms of postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety, and highlights the importance of therapy in helping her get back to her “usual self.”

Please note: this interview initially took place in 2020 on the “What about the Mama?” podcast, hosted by occupational therapist Karena Skibinsky, on episode 11: “What about being a mama with a chronic illness?” 

Episode at a glance:

  • Why Cheryl founded Arthritis Life after working as an occupational therapist in pediatrics, and the value of “edutainment” (entertaining educational content)!
  • Brief overview of Cheryl’s pregnancy remission and postpartum flare up of rheumatoid arthritis 
  • Cheryl describes the irritability and mental exhaustion she experienced postpartum with decision fatigue around her medical needs and her baby’s needs
  • How Cheryl’s postpartum mood changes affected her social relationships
  • The exact moment Cheryl realized she needed to go to therapy 
  • How “leaning in” to work was helpful in some ways and unhelpful in others
  • The dangers of a “breast is best” mentality and how Cheryl learned to embrace formula and a “Fed is Best” perspective
  • How being stubborn and optimistic is both the best and worst thing for Cheryl and her husband
  • Cheryl’s advice to other prospective mothers living with chronic illnesses
  • How Acceptance and Commitment Therapy helped Cheryl cope with her health and motherhood adjustment challenges
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Speaker Bios:

Cheryl Crow

Cheryl is an occupational therapist who has lived with rheumatoid arthritis for nineteen years. Her life passion is helping others with rheumatoid arthritis figure out how to live a full life despite arthritis, by developing tools to navigate physical, emotional and social challenges. She formed the educational company Arthritis Life in 2019 after seeing a huge need for more engaging, accessible, and (dare I say) FUN patient education and self-management resources.

Karena Skibinski

Karena is host of the “What About the Mama?”podcast, occupational therapist, and mother. 

Karena’s work is designed to empower mamas to shift the focus from all about the baby to themselves (even if it’s just during the episodes), and to inspire them to be the best version of themselves through the use of daily activities, or occupations. Her journey started when she became a mama a couple years ago and realized how easy it is to lose our identities.

Karena strongly believes that self-care isn’t a one-size-fits-all type of deal but unique, and needs vary day by day! She enjoys trying new recipes, going on long walks, swimming, and lazy afternoons on the couch.

You can find her on Instagram @karenakarena_ or at www.karenaskibinskitherapy.com

Episode Sponsors

Rheumatoid Arthritis Roadmap, a self-paced online course Cheryl created that teaches you how to confidently manage your physical, social and emotional life with rheumatoid arthritis. 

Rheum to THRIVE, a community support & education program Cheryl created to help people with rheumatic disease go from overwhelmed, confused and alone to confident, supported and connected. The next group starts in Spring 2022!

Medical disclaimer: 

All content found on Arthritis Life public channels was created for generalized informational purposes only. The content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

Episode links:

Cheryl’s Arthritis Life Pages:

Arthritis Life Program Links

Rheum to THRIVE, 6-month education and support program Cheryl created to help people with rheumatic disease go from overwhelmed, confused and alone to confident, supported and connected. The next group starts in Spring 2022!

Rheumatoid Arthritis Roadmap, a self-paced online course Cheryl created that teaches you how to confidently manage your physical, social and emotional life with rheumatoid arthritis. 

Full Episode Transcript:

Hi! My name is Cheryl Crow, and I am passionate about helping people navigate real life with arthritis. I’ve lived with rheumatoid arthritis for 17 years and I’m also a mom, teacher, and occupational therapist. I’m so excited to share my tricks for managing the ups and downs of life with arthritis. Everything from kitchen life hacks, and how to respond when people say, “You don’t look sick”, stress, work, sex, anxiety, fatigue, pregnancy, and parenting with chronic illness — no topic will be off limits here. I’ll also talk to other patients and share their stories and advice. Think of this as your chance to sit down and chat with a friend who’s been there. Ready to figure out how to manage your arthritis life? Let’s get started. 

Cheryl Crow: 

Today’s episode is a little different than usual because I am actually on the other side of the microphone. This interview was actually recorded for a different podcast where I was a guest in 2020. I hope you enjoy it and I look forward to hearing your feedback.

Karena Skibinsky 

What About the Mama? A podcast aimed at shifting your focus from all about the baby, to yourself, the mama, even if it’s just during these episodes from Karina Skibinski welcome to episode number 11. What about being a mama with a chronic illness. 

Karena Skibinsky

For this week’s episode, I chatted with Cheryl, a fellow occupational therapist, mama, and founder of Arthritis Life. And actually Cheryl is very much involved in the OT and chronic illnesses community. And there’ll be a more thorough intro and a bit at the, the start of our conversation.

Karena Skibinsky

Can you imagine though, on top of handling all of the mama responsibilities and pressures of fulfilling that role and also handling and living with a chronic illness that’s Cheryl’s reality and that’s exactly what we talked about during our chat. We also chatted about everyday usual mama things like trying to incorporate a mindfulness practice into our days, her own journey with postpartum anxiety, decision fatigue, and how that happens and why being optimistic can actually be a bad thing sometimes.

Karena Skibinsky 

It was truly such a great conversation with a wonderful person. So let’s get started. Today’s guest is Cheryl Crow, an occupational therapist, mom, rheumatoid arthritis, and chronic illness, patient advocate for healthcare and education issues volunteer for the Arthritis Foundation board member of the Washington Occupational Therapy Association and an association of, of Washington General’s occasional swing dancer and the proud owner of a cavalier king Charles spaniel named Teddy. And currently she’s working on being more mindful. So welcome to the What About the Mama Podcast, Cheryl?

Cheryl Crow 

Hi, thank you so much for having me, it’s great to be here.

Karena Skibinsky (02:25):

I’m so excited to have you here with us today. So I know that we were just talking about a little bit about your mindfulness endeavor before I hit record, but could you expand a little bit further on that topic?

Cheryl Crow (02:39):

Yeah, something that I have discovered through therapy is that my brain tends to really wanna focus on the future and that feels really productive for me. It feels like, okay, if I can just think through every possible scenario, then I can be prepared. You know?

Cheryl Crow (02:55):

So that is not a terrible mindset to have some of the time. But if you have that mindset all of the time, then you’re never actually truly living in the present. You’re just living in, <laugh> thinking about the future in every present, which then becomes the future, but then you’re too busy in the future thinking about the next future. So, you know, I’ve been doing some Headspace meditations and exercises and having like an intention for the day, which is something that a friend of mine who runs chronically friendly yoga classes recommended like set an intention at the beginning of the day. And my intention is, I mean, it’s just to be more present, especially with my son and my husband.

Karena Skibinsky (03:38):

It’s definitely a practice. Yes, definitely

Cheryl Crow (03:41):

A practice at first I thought, oh, I’ll just do it 10 minutes a day. And then I’ll, it’ll somehow magically <laugh> transfer into the rest of my life. But yeah, the therapist and other people who I’ve talked to have helped me realize that no, you practice it for those 10 minutes, but then you have to also practice it the rest of the day too. So yeah, it’s been really interesting.

Karena Skibinsky (04:01):

So go ahead and share with us a little bit of your journey. So how, how you got to where you are today. You’re doing a whole lot of stuff, a whole lot of things. Wonderful, amazing things. And how did you get started with arthritis Life?

Cheryl Crow (04:14):

Yes, I am the kind of person who likes to have a lot of balls in the air, but I do have, have to make sure that I’m not adding too many at once that too many that I can not handle. So yeah. So in terms of chronic illness, I was a very, actually healthy, active child and I had a really happy childhood and I was really did a lot of sports and I didn’t have a lot of healthcare experiences in terms of being a patient until my late teens, when my body started just breaking down and it felt like it was out of nowhere.

Cheryl Crow (04:45):

And I was really upset because I didn’t understand why. So I go to a bunch of doctors and then it was this, what I now know is a common experience for young women with autoimmune diseases where, because you don’t fit the mold necessarily of, you know, lupus or rheumatoid arthritis or whatnot.

Cheryl Crow (05:03):

At first, you just get told you’re not sick, you’re just anxious. And so that was a really, a whole experience that 17 years later I’m still like processing that because it was a very, it, it was basically a medical gas lighting, which is a whole other mental arena I could talk more about. Basically, you know, I got my diagnosis and then I was so rheumatoid arthritis is a autoimmune disease and it responds really well to some of the newer medications. So I have for the last 17 years, been in various states of medicated remission, which means I have to take the medication and I have side effects on that, but I don’t have severe like physical limitations or I’ve also had periods of time where I’ve had what’s called flare ups, which is when the disease is very active. And that happened really badly after I had my son.

Cheryl Crow (05:57):

So I got diagnosed when I was 21. And then I became an occupational therapist in my early thirties, had my son when I was 32. Yeah. And then my rheumatoid arthritis was really bad for a little while after he was born. And then it still was bad for a couple years. And then I got put on a new treatment and it’s doing better now. And I started Arthritis Life two or no one and a half years ago, I was working in pediatrics as an occupational therapist previously. That’s what I always wanted to do in, and that’s why I went to occupational therapy school. But I discovered during occupational therapy school, how there’s all these tips and tricks, I was never taught as a patient ever. And so I thought that’s interesting, put it in the back of my mind. And I volunteered with the Arthritis Foundation and I engaged in patient communities online as like a patient.

Cheryl Crow (06:48):

But then I was still like, okay, I’m gonna separate my work life from my arthritis life. So my work life is all about kids with special needs. And my arthritis is all my volunteer work with the Arthritis Foundation and the American College of Rheumatology. But then it just started adding up and irritating me to be honest and irritating me intellectually that, why is it that we, and this is just for the other occupational therapist listening, why are we, serving certain kids, to be blunt in the schools, outpatient clinic, medical services to kids who need handwriting. And then there’s, you know, people like with really bad rheumatoid arthritis and autoimmune diseases who have severe fatigue, severe joint deformities, severe, and they’re not being referred occupational therapy. And I just was like, somebody has to do something about this. Someone has to do something. And then I realized, okay, that someone could be me, you know? So then I had some other acute health issues come up and it made me think, okay, maybe I could do something that’s more, non-traditional, I’ll do something online where I don’t have to, I loved working in the schools, but you have to be on the school schedule.

Cheryl Crow (07:49):

Right. <laugh> and I was like, I was assigned to a high school that started at seven in the morning, but also in elementary school. So I’d have meetings sometimes at seven in the morning, and then another meeting at four 30, it’s just like not very family friendly. So, so anyway, yeah. That’s why, that’s how I got to (where) I am now, I guess. <Laugh>

Karena Skibinsky (08:07):

Cool. I love that. It’s just, it’s, it’s so interwoven into your own personal background. Like, you know, you’ve lived this experience, you know what it’s like, and now you’ve used that in a way to start Arthritis Life. So I feel like that just adds to that value of what you’re, you’re bringing to the world.

Cheryl Crow (08:26):

Yeah. It’s definitely a unique position to be in when you develop a product or a solution to the problem that you yourself have had, you know? And a lot of people kind of end up starting entrepreneurial journeys because of a problem that they experience. But for me, it has been definitely very meaningful to say, okay, these are, you know, all the things I see over and over again, every day on social media that patients, other patients and particularly other fellow, you know, young moms and dads with rheumatoid arthritis and related inflammatory arthritis conditions. These are the things that they’re struggling with. And it’s almost like they’re begging for an occupational therapist. They’re like, how do I clean my shower? How do I cope with, you know, do this or that? Yeah. You’re like, oh, this is, there’s, there’s a profession for this. Like, you know, and everyone’s like, oh, aren’t OT is just the same as PTs?

Cheryl Crow (09:14):

And so there’s a lot of education that has to go on. So yeah, what I ended up doing is creating like what’s is a it’s basically a educational course online, but also includes support.

Cheryl Crow (09:26):

So the two things patients need are, they need to be empowered and educated on the tools that they can use in their daily lives. And then they also need it because it’s a huge life changing event to get diagnosed with something like this. And so I created like an online course in community for people to go through and it’s been really, really fun. And I’ve only been doing the actual, that product for the last couple months. Yeah. It’s been really just one of these great examples of that. I think it’s Ikagi where you kind of have like, what is, what do you, you love? What are you good at? What does the world need and what can you be paid for? I finally figured out a way to put those all together. Yeah.

Karena Skibinsky(10:05):

Oh, that’s fantastic. Yeah. Wow. <laugh>

Cheryl Crow (10:08):

And we all lived happily every after. No, <laugh> there we go.

Karena Skibinsky(10:12):

Yeah. That’s wonderful. And I just love your, your videos on Instagram. I’ve been following you for a little while, but, and your YouTube channels too, is amazing. Just the Reels. You just like dove right into it. And the TikTok, I’m just like, that’s, that’s fantastic. <Laugh>

Cheryl Crow (10:31):

Well, and that’s, what’s so kind of weird is that my worlds are all colliding because I’m able to use like my background as like a swing dancer to make like funny videos that are like dance videos. And actually one of my weird claims to fame is that in 2000 11, when I was a first year OT student, they had a student video contest and I, my video won the contest <laugh> and this is back when you had to have like this, none of this stuff could be done on your phone, or like a free app. It was, you had to have like video editing software and you had to spend a lot of time to make a video. Now you can do it in like two seconds. Right. But anyway, so, and what was weird, there was like this foreshadowing, cuz at that conference, they actually brought me on the stage.

Cheryl Crow (11:12):

So literally as a first year student, I was in front of 6,000 other OTs in Philadelphia. I was like, because I’m me, I was thrilled. This was amazing because then people recognized me the rest of the conference. And so, and these two ladies, these like experienced OTs that probably been OTs for like 30 years were like, you know, you could probably make a lot more money doing videos than occupational therapy <laugh> and I’m like, geez, I’m like, so I’m a gung ho, I’m a first year student. I’m like, I wanna be an OT! I’m I’m doing this program. And now I’m like, okay, kind of, I understand where they were coming from because it is a, video editing and stuff is a skill that not a ton of people have. Now, again, it’s very accessible now, but, but anyway, what I found is that edutainment is really what people want.

Cheryl Crow (11:52):

They want to have information, but they want it to, to be in an entertaining, not boring way. And for some reason,medical professionals tend to think that boring is better. It seems because they’re worried about, often it seems people are worried that if they use humor or have fun with patients that they’re gonna be perceived except for pediatrics. And everyone is okay with being happy pediatrics, but they’re not like with adults, they’re like afraid that it will, it will sabotage their authority. But I, I don’t see it that way. I see you’re, you’re there to help a patient. And if you can help them through using entertainment, then that’s great. Win-Win.

Karena Skibinsky (12:27):

Then that’s a success one for

Cheryl Crow (12:29):

Everyone. <Laugh>

Karena Skibinsky (12:30):

Right. <Laugh> So how old is your son now?

Cheryl Crow (12:34):

He is six and a half. We celebrate half birthdays. So he’s very clear that he’s six and a half. He’s not six!

Karena Skibinsky (12:41):

That’s fantastic. Six and a half <laugh>. And I remember those days, I feel like I remember when I was that young, the half birthday was a big deal. Oh huge. It definitely was a big deal. Yeah.

Cheryl Crow (12:50):

<Laugh>

Karena Skibinsky (12:52):

So let’s move into a little, a bit about the pressures of motherhood on top of living with your chronic illness. That just adds a whole new layer of pressure.

Cheryl Crow (13:04):

Yeah. Yeah. And I think what’s hard for someone like me who was like a planner again, is I wanted to kind of plan things out. Right. And it’s kind of like that classic example of when you’re pregnant, you have your birth plan and everyone like, like at some point has to realize that like the birth plan is not gonna go according to plan <laugh> <laugh>

Karena Skibinsky(13:22):

Nope, not at all. Not at all.

Cheryl Crow (13:23):

It’s also like the life plan after that, you know, might not go according to your plan. At the time, in 2013, when I was pregnant 2013 to 14, the research wasn’t as robust as it is now about what the safety of the kinds of medicines that, that are needed to control the disease of rheumatoid arthritis. So the first area of confusion was like, well, this medicine is safe for you, but not the baby, but this medicine’s safe for the baby, but not you. And I’m like, well, there’s one of me and the baby’s inside for me. So, so like someone just tell me what to do, you know? But they’re like, it’s your decision? I’m like, what don’t I don’t <laugh>

Karena Skibinsky (14:03):

Can we find something that like works for me and the baby or…?

Cheryl Crow (14:06):

Yeah. And so there’s a lot of confusion around that my son was breech and so I had a C section. And so the problem with that is it’s best to go back on your meds right away after childbirth, but also, but they also make you more prone to infection. That’s like the main side effect. So we waited four weeks, but then I was already starting to flare up and have more disease activity.

Cheryl Crow (14:28):

*You know, especially being a first time mom, you’re having to learn how to be a mom and how to have a baby while also learning how to manage your own condition in a state that it might not have been at before or because your whole immune system changes when you’re pregnant. And so autoimmune diseases notoriously get better during pregnancy and worse postpartum. And that was exactly my pattern. Like I felt the best I’ve ever felt since before I got diagnosed during my pregnancy.

Cheryl Crow (14:54):

And then I felt the worst I had felt afterwards, I was a lot of pain and I was severely fatigued. And I just, you’re just out of your mind a little bit in terms of, you know, the sleep deprivation alone, it was hard to make decisions. I definitely started to feel like I just had too…It’s like, it’s too much. I just wanna go sleep.

Cheryl Crow (15:14):

You know, everyone else make the decisions for me. I’m gonna go check myself into a hotel for a few nights and then come back and I need a break. I can’t escape this kind of these pressures. So, you know, I’ve always been a very energetic person. I’ve never really been prone to what I would consider in terms of hopelessness or, you know, avolition, like not wanting to do anything, but I know one of the symptoms of depression is that feeling of being overwhelmed, but it’s also a symptom of,can be a symptom of anxiety.

Cheryl Crow (15:42):

So it ends up, hindsight’s always 2020. So it ends up being that I had postpartum, what they, what they decided to call it is postpartum anxiety because primary symptoms were irritability, which is like a high energy thing. You know, that can be either depression or anxiety. But also I was having a hard time sleeping, which tends to be an anxiety thing. But anyway, it doesn’t matter. I guess what you call it, anxiety, depression. It was a postpartum mood, not greatness. <Laugh>

Karena Skibinsky(16:09):

Yeah. You said that, so four weeks after you had the baby, it was when you, you can restart taking the medications for your arthritis, right?

Cheryl Crow (16:15):

Right. But they didn’t work as well anymore. ‘Cause my immune system had changed. So one of the things that happens with these medications, it’s like you’re running against the clock because your immune system is making a mistake in that it’s attacking your healthy joints. So it’s kind of not doing a good job in some ways, but it’s still smart enough to outsmart the medication. So eventually none of the medications, most people can stay on the rest of their lives. They usually work for anywhere from five to 15 years. So I’ve had it for 17 years and I’ve been on three main different medications at this point. So you’re always kind of trying to figure out, how do I max my time on each medication? Does that make sense? Because there aren’t endless amounts to go on mm-hmm <affirmative> so, so again, that that’s a big decision, right?

Cheryl Crow (17:01):

How long the medication I was on was called Remicade. So I have to think how long do I stay on Remicade? I used to be on it every eight weeks and then we switched it to every seven, then every six and every five and every four. And then we doubled it and then there’s a lot of calibration and decisions going on there. And then there’s the baby himself and he was losing weight. And so we were supplementing with pumped breast milk and then formula. And it was just, I mean it was a lot.

Cheryl Crow (17:24):

So I was just very mentally exhausted by all the decisions. What’s interesting is I see now and my husband’s and my dynamic has always been, he respects my decisions and when it comes to like health and parenting, a lot of times he’s kind of like, yeah, whatever you say goes, we kind of have a division of labor.

Cheryl Crow (17:42):

So that was the precedent that had been set, right? But then I wasn’t capable anymore of doing that all on my own, but I didn’t even recognize that. So I just kind of took it as face value, I have to do ALL this. I have to be the one that figures out, should we do formula or not? Or should we do this or that?

Cheryl Crow (17:57):

And I don’t think I really utilized him as a partner. I don’t think he knew that I could have or wanted to, you know, it was just – that part, um, I utilized my relationship with my parents and my sister who’s a NICU nurse, it turns out she was a great support.

Cheryl Crow (18:12):

*****But I think I ended up, I think you had asked prior to this that, you know, what would I have done differently? I definitely would’ve just reached out for help and not tried to do as much myself.

Cheryl Crow (18:22):

I think a lot of times in my life I’ve been able to kind of be the quote unquote exception like, oh yeah, I have this disease, but I’m overcoming it. Or I’m able to swing dance despite RA I’m able to do this and that, you know, I’m able to be like, I was a band nerd, but I was also a jock, but I was also like a theater geek, but I was also like friendly with people and like a homecoming queen kind of person. So it was like, I was used to being able to have my cake and eat it too. And like parenting, I mean yeah, having a baby, it just, you really have to be <laugh>, you know, there is a limitation, you know?

Karena Skibinsky (18:55):

Yeah. And I think if you’re the type of person, like, you know, that, that is very much do it all yourself very much a go-getter accepting that help is hard work. So even if someone is offering help for you, like, Hey, let me do this or, Hey, do you need help with this? Or you need to that’s it’s so hard for us to just be like, yeah, totally. Well, and accept that.

Cheryl Crow (19:16):

Yeah. I think the one thing I was always good at was leaving my child with other people <laugh> So, that, I don’t know if that – I know a lot of moms have a hard time with that, but I’ve never, I didn’t. And we, he had his first overnight with my mom at like, you know, 12 weeks old or something. And we went to Japan, my husband and I went to Japan for the world OT conference for four days when he was four months old. And you know, but I’m like, look back at that now. And I’m like, I shouldn’t, I was like in no state to do that (go to the conference), but I was just like, I didn’t wanna give up what I thought were my, was my norm. Right? And I went to the Nashville OT conference in like 2015, like all these things, I just pushed myself so hard.

Cheryl Crow (19:56):

And I kind of did that whole lean in, you know, lean in, did like a million continuing ed things. And you know, I, I can see now that, I mean, it’s complicated. Cause on the one hand, sometimes doing, engaging in work related things like taking a continuing ed course, let’s say when my, a son was like five or six months old, that helped me feel more like myself. It was using my brain in a way that wasn’t like thinking about changing a diaper, you know, but mm-hmm, <affirmative> I think the sum total of the amount of things I was trying to do was just too much. It just took a toll on my body. So –

Karena Skibinsky (20:30):

Do you feel like you were just on like autopilot? Cause I know that in those early stages of, of, of when Lenny was around in the very beginning, I just feel like I was like doing things, but I really wasn’t like thinking through these things. And then now that I look back I’m like, what was I like, for example, I, I decided to take Lenny and Lana Steve’s 10 year old daughter to get some ice cream. And it was like in the middle of December and it was like raining outside, almost like sleeting, but I was like, Hey, let’s go get some ice cream. You guys <laugh>, let’s get in the car, let’s go, just be normal. And now I look back and I’m like, what was I thinking?

Cheryl Crow (21:09):

A hundred percent! I think, I think autopilot is a great analogy for it. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> I mean, and you build patterns in your life before and you know, you’re gonna fall back on your default pattern and it takes a lot of time and effort to build new ones.

Karena Skibinsky (21:23):

Absolutely. So on top of the autopilot, it you’ve mentioned that you were let’s talk about a little bit of the “Fed Is Best” concept and how much pressure there is amongst moms to live up to the notion that breast is best. And how is that? How did that relate? How did that play out in your journey? Yeah.

Cheryl Crow (21:47):

So it’s hard to separate what my feelings about it now from at the time, but you know, basically of course somebody like me kind of a Type A like, you know, overachieving person would wanna do what’s best…Like, you dangle the best care in front of me? Yeah. I’m gonna try that.

Cheryl Crow (22:06):

However, I, you know it’s interesting cuz my sister being a NICU nurse was very, very well versed in how common breastfeeding challenges are even with full term babies. So she prepared me pretty well too, and I think also having a chronic illness reminded me, you know, bodies don’t work all the time. They don’t necessarily work and it’s kind of an ableist assumption to say that, oh, it’s natural. All women are able to make milk. All babies – milk – NO, they are not! What really strikes me is that moms, we know that not all bodies work because we know the rate of miscarriage, or most people figure out the rate of miscarriage and it’s scary.

Cheryl Crow (22:48):

We all all know mothers can die in childbirth. Babies can die in childbirth, but somehow when it comes to breastfeeding, there’s this complete blinders on where it’s like, it’s natural, it’s the thing we should all do. And so, you know, and I’m not, I don’t say I’m saying that like in a kind of sarcastic tone and I don’t wanna disrespect anyone who chooses to do it ’cause it’s, what they want to do or what they feel is best for their family.

Cheryl Crow (23:13):

But, but what I think is mm-hmm, <affirmative> *****unfortunate about the “breast is best” mantra is that it completely fails to take into account that babies are born into a family system. They are not in a vacuum. In a vacuum, all other things being a hundred percent equal breast milk is a better source of nutrition than formula. That is a fact, in a vacuum. No one is living in a vacuum, not a single person.

Cheryl Crow (23:44):

So if you kind of put that pressure on moms to say that you should be breastfeeding because it’s the best thing, regardless of whatever circumstance you have, that is a major distortion of the actual reality. And just a few statistics from the Fed is Best Foundation, which I find very, very helpful. It’s run by a a doctor who has worked, she’s actually really trying to reduce the rates of babies that are malnourished because of the fact that again, so people who are breastfeeding proponents, don’t always understand that, you know, it, the estimates are unclear, but between three and 5% of, you know, mothers are not able to, to produce adequate breast milk for their babies. And whether that’s three, whether that’s five, whether that’s 10, it’s not zero. So let’s take that, you know, into consideration. And it’s ableist to say that it would be zero.

Cheryl Crow (24:39):

We know that health conditions occur and that human body systems don’t always work perfectly. So given that, when all of the education around it is –  doesn’t take that into account and is actually actively trying not to educate moms. There’s like slides and PowerPoints people have shared from like medical institutions are like, don’t tell them about formula. You’re not allowed to educate them. You’re not allowed to have formula! Yeah. 

“Baby friendly,” baby friendly initiative of is extremely problematic in, in my opinion. And I will say, I’m not a baby expert, but you know, if you actually control for the variables of maternal socioeconomic status and maternal education, the actual health benefits of breast milk are from the latest studies, two to three babies, fully excessively breastfed, prevent one ear infection on the population level before two years of age. And after two years, that effect disappears six to seven babies fully breastfed prevents one upper respiratory infection per six to or seven babies, 25, every 25 babies being fully breastfed, prevents one babies, lower respiratory infection.

Cheryl Crow (25:47):

There’s always other ones, but it’s like, there’s zero effect of breastfeeding on food allergies, dental problems, hypertension, diabetes, cholesterol, growth, you know, there is a shame around formula that, that it can come from absolutely the individual themselves and from the external sources.

Cheryl Crow (26:05):

And it’s just, it can be very like, so we, I ended up having mastitis four times in six weeks between when immediately when I started my medications again, which make you more prone to infections. And I got I and mastitis is not fun. It’s not just an infection. It feels like the worst flu you’ve ever had. Like it’s a really, really, it was really my temperature like spiked super high, super fast. And so I weaned him at 10 weeks and then I, you know, I would go out and have the formula and it, that the day I weaned him was like the hugest relief, cuz again, it was like all these decisions OK? So I was pumping around the clock and to supplement and cuz he was losing weight and then we were supplementing with formula, but then we were also supplementing with pumped breast milk, but also br- it was such – TOO much. Like breastfeeding is a physical act that requires labor energy time on the part of the mom. So a lot of people are like “breastfeeding is free.” It is free, if you don’t, it’s free financially. It’s not free if you account for a mother’s time and a mother’s energy,

Karena Skibinsky(27:14):

An emotional – there’s a lot of emotional pieces to it. Yeah. I, I think people just don’t take into consideration the big picture. Yeah. So like you were saying, you know, breast is best in a vacuum of course. But then what about the lifestyle? What about the mom? You know, what about the family? What about the systems that this baby was born into mm-hmm <affirmative> and where, you know, there are benefits to breast milk. Like we mentioned, like you mentioned, but where do those benefits outweigh the mom and her needs?

Karena Skibinsky(27:48):

You know, her, her mental state and, and everything that she’s going through. Like where, where is that balance? Where is that benefit? And so then you have to ask yourself, is it really that beneficial? And, but then also like finding formula is a, is a whole journey in, on itself. And figuring that piece out because you don’t really learn about that either on top of that, yeah? Because people just assume that you’re just gonna breastfeed, you know?

Cheryl Crow (28:17):

Totally, totally. And any, any occupational therapist listening here, I honestly think a great business idea and I’ve thought of this myself, but I’m going into the arthritis camp now, but is being a formula feeding consultant. If there’s lactation consultants, there needs to be formula consultants, ’cause there’s a bunch of different bottles to choose from. There’s a bunch of different nipples. There’s different nipple flows. Where do you start? There’s soy free. There’s soy formula, there’s dairy formula. There’s this formula that’s imported from Europe, you know? Yes. There’s such, you need for better education around that.

Cheryl Crow (28:48):

And you know, it could be cause, and a lot of times there’s this kind of like people feel like they have to explain why, you know? For a while I was like, oh I couldn’t breasted anymore ’cause I have RA, or people can’t breastfeed ‘case they’ve had, you know, breast cancer or, or many, many different reasons. But really it should just be a mother’s and a family’s choice, like for what works, you know? I want to, to sleep more than two hours at a time, that is important for my mental health. Like <laugh>, you know, absolutely. I would never br- I would never even try to breastfeed again, personally, it just would, there’s nothing about it that is worth it to me because I didn’t feel that the bonding actually was better with breastfeeding. I actually felt much more bonded to my child once that burden of breastfeeding was removed because as I was able to sleep more and I was more present with him. So actually it goes back to what we’re talking about at the beginning about presence.

Karena Skibinsky (29:33):

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. That makes cause then it’s like, it just like, it’s like a relief that you don’t have to like carry the stress around and like, and then if it’s not working that makes you even more stressful and then it’s guilt feelings of guilt are, are mixed in to those feelings as well.

Cheryl Crow (29:48):

Yeah. And I did wanna mention that having challenges with breastfeeding, whether it’s insufficient intake or the baby’s latch, not working well is a, is a predictor of postpartum depression. So women who experienced difficulties with breast feeding are at a much higher risk of postpartum depression. So it is related overall to maternal mental health. So yeah, like, yeah.

Cheryl Crow (30:11):

And I think as OTs, we’re trained to look at the big picture, right? I don’t follow someone around who’s middle aged and slightly overweight and say, excuse me it’s best to exercise – exercise today! It’s best. <Laugh> 20 minutes. Exercise is best! Like I don’t all them around here, 20 minutes. Yeah. Are you, excuse me much your cholesterol are, what are you eating? Like we don’t, why do we do this about babies? I honestly think the reason we do it is that there’s so much that we can’t control, and feeding is like, the – they always say eating disorders are about control, right?

Cheryl Crow (30:40):

That’s something you can control. And I, and I think that so I’m not talking about eating disorders, but I’m saying eating disorders are about control, not, not necessarily about eating in the, in the same way that fixating on a baby’s food source to me seems to be a way to, there’s so few things you can control. And there’s so many gray areas with parenting in general that we all just wanna do best – And you’re, you’re telling someone there’s the only thing that we know for SURE is best. Other than let’s say, putting your baby in a car seat and putting your baby to sleep on a flat surface is breastfeeding. Like, that’s it, you have to do those things. Otherwise you’re not doing the best, you know? So

Karena Skibinsky (31:20):

That’s such a good point, cuz you’re right. There is there’s like really nothing that you can control in parenting. I mean, there’s a couple of things here and there of course, but like really it’s babies in the driver’s seat. <Laugh>

Cheryl Crow (31:34):

Yeah. It’s such a humbling experience. I mean like when people say, you know, like what advice do you have? Like I’m pregnant, what advice do you have? Mm-Hmm <affirmative>, I’m always like: take care of your mental health, learn how to accept the things you cannot control, you know? And if I could have done anything differently, I actually, I, would’ve not only gone to my own therapy earlier just to work on kind of my underlying, you know issues, and, but I also would’ve gone to, oh, I I’ll send you this link. There’s a John Gottman class. That’s prepares couples for bringing home a new baby. And, and he’s actually a marriage, he’s like a world renowned, John Gottman is a world renowned marriage therapist. And he said that, yeah, he was studying mar- you know, the things that make a marriage work really well and things that make it not work well.

Cheryl Crow (32:19):

And it was no, no surprise that having a baby is one of the most stress inducing experiences for a lot of couples. And so he does a class, I think it’s like a six to eight week class with couples. Talking about the relationship. Like to me, that’s so much more, that would’ve been so much more helpful to us than like a childbirth or a feeding class, ‘cause they both ended up being completely irrelevant in the end, you know, but more power if that’s your life’s passion, you love doing like childbirth classes.

Cheryl Crow (32:47):

And you know, to me, I’m just, I think: what’s gonna be important to my child in five years? And to me, in five years, you know, nobody go – asks kindergarten, were you fed breast milk or not? No one cares whether you were of vaginal birth or a C-section. I guess some OTs think that there’s some differences in terms of reflexes or whatnot. I personally, I don’t think that’s the hill I’m gonna be willing to focus on. I’m focusing on the things that, you know, we know for sure are gonna happen, which is you’re going to have to have your – take care of yourself and your own mental health. And it’s going to be a stressful experience, you know? Prepare yourself for having a toddler!

Karena Skibinsky (33:27):

Just keeping the big picture in mind. Really just keep the big picture in mind. And I also have found that a lot of the moms that I’ve connected with have said that one thing that they wish they would’ve known prior to the baby arriving is the fact that relationships do change so much and the dynamics change so much. And the way people do things are, are a lot different. And, and how are you gonna pick and choose your battles with that? Yeah, it’s just and you know, of course it, it makes sense, right? A baby comes into the picture, of course things are gonna be different, but when you’re in the throes of it, it’s, it’s amazing. It really is something that could be definitely prepared for. And

Cheryl Crow (34:15):

Yeah, it was really interesting because a couple years before we had Charlie, when we were just engaged, we had gone out to dinner with a couple of friends. This is gonna to relate. I promise <laugh> and we were saying something like, you know, he, my husband and I just get along, like at baseline, we’re really good friends, you know? We’re like, you know, marry your best friend kind of thing. Hmm. And you know, we love each other more than friends too, but <laugh> no, we just get along. And we were telling them how we don’t, we don’t really argue a lot. And they were like, and it was really, I mean, I, I should tell them that I still remember this cuz they were really, they’re really nice and they’re really good friends, but they were like, oh, they like seem to think it was a bad thing.

Cheryl Crow (34:51):

And I was like, why? We’re cool! We’re awesome! We don’t fight. And they’re like, well then you guys haven’t practiced fighting. You don’t then know how to argue with each other, if you don’t ever do it. And I was like, Ooh. And I’ve learned since then that yes, people, couples are – And I, my husband are both kind of conflict averse, but we also, the kind of people we’re like happy 95% of the time. But when we get unhappy, we go from like zero to a hundred like that. Like we both have like a short fuse when we’re triggered. We’re just not triggered that often. But whoa. Yeah. Like I, and oh that friend’s a nanny, so she knows what she’s talking about. Cause she’s nannied for families, you know, in home nanny situation. So basically, yeah. We had to completely relearn how to relate to each other and it, and we’re both middle children.

Cheryl Crow (35:38):

And so the joke that we like to make, you know, now is that it’s like middle children are kind of famous for being like kind of scorekeepers, you know, like you’re trying to make the other older children happy, the younger children happy. And you’re kind of trying to see both sides, but also you can end up being kind of like, “well she got this and he got that. What do I get?” You know? And so I would be kind of, and I actually though I, I, it have to, at one point I literally cuz my husband’s an engineer, I made a chart to like show him how much more labor I was doing than him. Just to be like, like, can you, I don’t even care if you change your behavior. I just need you to acknowledge that this is my reality, like that, like this is not, we’re not doing equal,

Cheryl Crow (36:12):

This is not equal. And congratulations to you for doing what you’re doing. Cuz I appreciate it, but like do not be under the delusion that you’re doing more than me cuz that’s not true. <Laugh> yeah.

Karena Skibinsky (36:23):

Did that chart help? Help anything?

Cheryl Crow (36:25):

It actually did. So one of the biggest predictors of a marriage longevity, according to Dr, Dr. John Gottman, is whether you’re open to your partner’s influence, which means like whether you foundationally like respect the other person. So even when my husband and I were at our worst, we’ve always respected each other. And so I think in retrospect that’s what helped. But there was a point like I, one of – again, I didn’t know this at the time that postpartum anxiety can manifest as irritability. And it was definitely kind of projected towards like whoever was closest to me, which ended up being, you know, my spouse or like a random, like, plastic bag that wasn’t opening correctly at the grocery store.

Cheryl Crow (37:01):

I remember having a meltdown. I’m like, oh I just CAN’T, this stupid bag! Like UGH! Those of you who know me, like Cheryl was like, what? Like, this is not me, you know? This is not how I normally am. I’m like, don’t sweat the small stuff, you know? So at one point he’s like, he’s, he’s a lot, he’s introverted. He’s a little more, he’s definitely more introverted and more private than I am. He doesn’t like do social media and stuff. So he kind of had a moment where he was like, do you like, do you like me anymore? <Laugh> Like, it was really sad. I remember just saying like, I don’t like ANYTHING right now, including myself. And that was my kind of moment of truth. When I realized I need to go to therapy. I still hadn’t go to therapy at that point. Oh, because, and I’m really glad I just thought of this – because I’m optimistic, and that’s actually not a good thing.

Cheryl Crow (37:45):

Don’t be optimistic sometimes. <Laugh> Cause it’s not a good thing if you’re hurting, because if you’re optimistic, when you’re hurting, you keep thinking things about to get better. So you don’t take proactive action ’cause you’re like, it’s about to get better. It’s about to get better. Oh, it’s gonna get better. We’ll just wait until he’s one years old. Just wait. He is one and a half. Just wait til he is two.

Cheryl Crow (38:02):

And I remember my therapist told me, I went when he, Charlie was one year old, and it was right around when my husband had that conversation where I was like, I don’t, I don’t really like anything. I wasn’t like, I don’t like you.

Cheryl Crow (38:11):

*But I was like, I want you to understand that this is not about you. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> the only thing I felt good at was work. Working with other people’s children.

Cheryl Crow (38:18):

And that kind of made me feel guilty because I was like, why am I like good at working with other children and not with my own child? Like, what’s wrong with me? I’ve always said, I’m not a baby person. I’m a kid person. I love upper elementary. Like third to fifth grade was my sweet spot. So at the clinic they would always give me those kids. Cuz a lot of people liked the little kids. So I wasn’t like, I’m a terrible mom. I was just kind of like, well I know this, I know what everyone’s like, it’s gonna be different when it’s your own baby. But it wasn’t. Like I, I could objectively be like, “he is definitely cute.” Like no doubt about that – in the moment. I just wasn’t able to relish it in the same way that I do now.

Cheryl Crow (38:55):

So anyway, yeah. I finally went to therapy. It was because, and my husband’s very optimistic. We’re both stubborn and optimistic. So we’re both like, okay, just we’ll just figure it out. One of these days we’ll figure it out. And we also are avoidant like conflict avoidant, but also like let’s not worry about this. I mean he brought it up that time, which was significant, that wasn’t normally happening. He brought up that like you, you don’t seem to like me or anyone or anything right now. <Laugh> and I was

Karena Skibinsky (39:19):

That’s that’s hard. That’s a hard place to be.

Cheryl Crow (39:20):

It seems impossible now. Like I don’t even relate to that person that I was, but I mean mm-hmm <affirmative> I can remember it. I know it was me, but yeah. I mean, I think that’s, what’s so important to prepare yourself for any eventuality, like when you’re pregnant or prepare yourself when you’re postpartum, you know, you could end up feeling anything that you never even thought you would feel. You could have postpartum psychosis, you could wanna kill yourself or kill your baby. You would could want to, you know, you could also get really depressed. Like there’s so many possibilities. And I think that we all learn that, but we’re like, that’s not gonna happen to me. Like mm-hmm, <affirmative>

Cheryl Crow (39:56):

I’m gonna love this baby and feed him breast milk and we’re gonna be happily ever after <laugh> yeah. We’re gonna

Cheryl Crow (40:01):

Walk off in the sunset. Just like all the Instagram pictures <laugh>

Karena Skibinsky (40:04):

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. So aside from therapy, ’cause I, I have to give my therapy plug here too. I love therapy. I feel like everybody should have a therapist. And even, even if you feel like you you’re in a space when, you’re in a space that like a good space, that’s the best time to find a therapist, I feel like. Because then you can connect with someone before shit hits the fan essentially. And I am very much pro therapy. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> but what are some other things that are part of your routine that make life as a mom, easier for you?

Cheryl Crow (40:38):

Yeah, I think even though in the very early days, I, when he was little, like an infant and baby, I had this problem of doing it all myself. I did learn to have kind of that village mentality of – Ok, you know, have, and I, I mean, I I’ll be honest about my experience. I mean, I don’t know how much of this unfortunately relates now during the coronavirus, but <laugh> but you know, like having, you know, the village around you, other friends, you know, family members, grandparents, making sure that I proactively gave myself a break. I found that when I had a break from parenting that wasn’t work, ’cause work is a break, but it’s not really cuz it’s not a, it’s not you time it’s but it’s a break from parenting, but you know, a break that was truly for leisure and recreation.

Cheryl Crow (41:31):

We started trying to go once a month, my husband and I would go on like one overnight, like, or my mom would take the baby for an overnight or we would go just like to an Airbnb. Obviously again, maybe some of that, depending on where you’re living might not be possible, but doing even just mentally, you know, having a home date night and having maybe a friend or a family member take your baby, like even just outside, you know, or mm-hmm <affirmative>, whenever it is possible to kind of put some routines in place. It wasn’t just the activity, it was being able to look forward to it and know it was coming. So that’s why I say routine that, you know, oh, hey, once a week or once a month, this is going to happen. That was, that was really good. And I think I did join a class called fit for mom, which is a franchise apparently, but it’s an, it was an outdoor fitness class and it was called Stroller Strides.

Cheryl Crow (42:21):

So sorry, the company’s called Fit 4 Mom and the class called stroller strides and you put your baby in the stroller and then the moms are all or the dads and the moms, but mostly moms were, you know, you know, doing exercises outside and so were, would walk or jog and then you would stop and then do like a little exercise. And that was really good to like connect to other people who are, I think it’s important to connect to other people in the same stage as you like, cuz you could you forget. I mean, it’s everyone says you forget. And at the time you’re like, I’m never gonna forget this, but I do forget sometimes the difference when you 18 months and two years like, oh yeah, what was he doing then? Or, you know, so having people who are like right there with you to validate, oh yeah, that was hard.

Cheryl Crow (43:01):

Or you know, to just be at the stroller strides and see him with another, you know, two year old crying and realizing, oh yeah, you’re, you know, this is just what they do. It’s not you. So that, that helped me a lot. I also think, because right now it’s kind of like we’re living one endless day. Like we’ve like literally been all together as a family for six months, like quarantining. But because it can all blur together, I actually do, now that he’s six years old, I try to make an effort once a day to like really do something together.

Cheryl Crow (43:31):

I know that sounds kind of sad that it’s only once a day, but like there’s this different kinds of modes you can get in, right when you’re with your child all the time. I’m not, I cannot be a hundred percent focused on him and engaging with him all the time. And I actually don’t think that’s developmentally appropriate either, right? He needs to be able to entertain himself a little bit and engage in his own activities. But you know, we’ll play a board game or, and it, and it’s fun time for me to actually connect with him and remind myself that, you know, this is,uI do enjoy being a mom at this point. So mm-hmm, <affirmative>, you know, having.

Karena Skibinsky(44:05):

Just be mindful.

Cheryl Crow (44:06):

Yeah. Be mindful. Cause I think oftentimes our, our minds are thinking about three things at once. And so setting that time aside for one activity a day where you’re just fully present, mindful, that makes a big difference. Yeah.

Cheryl Crow (44:17):

And like developing even like new hobbies, I just remembered this one. So my son and I were watching a show about it’s called Nailed It where people do like cooking and we watch a lot of cooking shows. We watch nailed it. And we watched my God, what’s called, oh, Kids’ Baking Championship where, and he is just intrigued that kids only a few years of him are baking. They started doing these challenges called dessert imposter. So you make something that looks like a savory dish, like a pizza or lasagna or hamburger, but it’s actually a dessert like, oh my gosh. So we just like have jazzed up our routines and been like, okay, once a week, we’re trying to make a dessert imposter. And like, and like we’re tricking dad. And like, he thinks it’s so funny, you know, that we’re like, dad, like here, dad, we made you with pizza.

Cheryl Crow (45:09):

I mean, and like, you know, it’s yeah. When they’re six, like they totally can’t like, they cannot, you know, he’s like, it’s like so adorable. You know, it’s like, I mean, right now it feels like, oh my gosh, we have so many, you know, so fewer options than we normally have, right? And that’s true. We don’t have as many options for activities as we normally would, but we can still have fun, you know?

Cheryl Crow (45:36):

And so that has been, that has been really good. And just connecting to other people, I guess for me personally, I’m really social. I’m really extroverted as you can tell. So, you know, making sure that I have those friend friendship connections, whether through social media or zoom calls or, you know, just connecting to, to other people is something that brings me a lot of joy.

Karena Skibinsky (46:01):

Yeah. That’s so important. We’re we’re just social creatures in general. Yeah. People. Yeah. And so I think that’s really important, especially right now in times of the Corona, having that connection <affirmative> is, is so important. And especially just as a mom, too, you wanna feel connected to other moms going through the same thing that you’re going through. And it’s just, it, sometimes it feels like motherhood is like a club mm-hmm <affirmative>

Cheryl Crow (46:26):

<Laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, and it, and I think actually that brings up a good point that I was thinking about I earlier in terms of, you know, recognizing that again, humans, bodies, don’t always, you know, aren’t always able to do what we want them to do. And like, you know, I feel so lucky that I was even able to get pregnant, you know, with Charlie and, and have a child, you know, I don’t take that for granted.

Cheryl Crow (46:50):

I know, you know, now I’m in my late thirties, I have friends and connections who are, would, are just desperate to be part of that club too. So yeah. We talked really mindfulness, you know, taking a moment to realize, yeah, you can kind of simultaneously hold two different contrary truths together. You can say, this is really hard. And I’m so, so grateful that this is like the, what I have.

Cheryl Crow (47:14):

Yeah. And one of the things that my therapist taught is a philosophy or theory called Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, which is like the best therapy approach you might not have heard of. Especially as an OT, ‘cause it talks about how, you know, acceptance is an often misunderstood word, but in this case it’s accepting acceptance of the present moment. So that mindfulness and maybe willingness to, to be present in the present moment and then you commit to what you value and then you take action towards that.

Cheryl Crow (47:46):

So that’s where it’s really, it’s like really it congruent with occupational therapy in terms of meaningful activity, right? You say, what do I value? What are – what’s meaningful to me? But what what’s different about it than a lot of other philosophies that I had tried to do before is that it says it states that we don’t try to argue with our thoughts, like with C B T, I found that I was like, cognitive behavior therapy,

Cheryl Crow (48:07):

I’d be like, okay, well how is this a distortion? How is this not – Well, that’s not necessarily always what helps you in taking steps towards loving your life and having a meaningful life. You could actually just say, okay, is this thought helpful or not? And can I live the life I want, despite this thought.

Cheryl Crow (48:23):

So maybe the anxiety thought is: this won’t, what if this doesn’t get better? Like, let’s say I’m in pain ’cause of my rheumatoid, what if it doesn’t get better? It might not get better. But if- does focusing on that thought help me? It is not really very helpful, right?

Cheryl Crow (48:36):

So how can I, can I, hold on? Can I just allow that thought to be there? Can I pretend that – like, I think a lot of times we think of negative thoughts as like a beach ball. So you’re like, okay, the good one, you know, I’ll, I’ll hang on to the one I like, and the ones I don’t like, I’m gonna try to push ’em under the water, but you can’t really push a beach ball under the water, right? <Laugh> Can you just allow it to be there? You know, allow negative quote unquote, negative, uncomfortable thoughts to be there.

Karena Skibinsky (49:03):

I also feel like, yeah, sometimes if we try to push down negative thoughts, then they fester and they become more, you know, bigger than, than what they, what they could have been. But I like to think of negative thoughts or, or feelings as they can be like in the same car as me, they can be in the passenger seat, but they’re not gonna take the driver’s seat.

Cheryl Crow (49:26):

<Laugh> oh my gosh. That is actually the exact analogy that Steven Hayes uses. Who’s one of the founders of ACT. He says your thoughts are like passengers on the bus and they’re constantly yelling stuff at you. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> right. They’re like, oh, turn over. Oh, don’t do that. Oh, go back, go back home. This is scary. Or like you’re stupid. You shouldn’t drive, you know, but you just

Cheryl Crow (49:44):

Acknowledge them like, hello. Yes. I can hear you, but I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna let you take over the driving.

Cheryl Crow (49:53):

Yeah. Yeah. And I think there is kind of a beautiful analogy between, like we talked about before, the things that you can and can’t control. Like, becoming a parent is intrinsically a situation that you have to confront at some point that there are things you can’t control. You cannot control whether a child cries or not at that moment. And you can do things to this, facilitate them stopping, crying or not, but you can’t control at the end of the day, whether those things you’re doing are really gonna work.

Karena Skibinsky (50:17):

Yes.

Cheryl Crow (50:17):

So, you know, and the same with chronic illness, like there is a point at which my health is somewhat out of my control. And for me accepting that is actually better for my mental health. You would think it would be depressing to be like, those things are my control, WAH! Like I have no control. I like control! But actually it’s freeing, right? Cause it frees me from having to focus on making everything better all the time. Say, you know what, sometimes I’m gonna have pain. Can I still live the life I want with pain? Yes. Okay. Well, let’s do it, you know?

Karena Skibinsky (50:47):

Absolutely, bring it on.

Karena Skibinsky (50:49):

Yeah. Right. Well Cheryl, how can listeners reach you if they have any questions or comments or they just wanna connect with you and chat with you further about motherhood or living with a chronic illness or autoimmune disease or whatever?

Cheryl Crow (51:04):

Yeah. Unfortunately I wasn’t the most strategic when I, I planned out all my accounts and they don’t all have the same name <laugh> but I’m the most active on Instagram and it’s arthritis underscore life underscore Cheryl with a C H E R Y L and also TikTok. It’s just at arthritis life. Those who the two I’m really active on now. But I also have a Facebook group that’s under arthritis, life share are all just all one text block, no underscores.

Cheryl Crow (51:32):

Yeah. There, this will be all in the show notes too. Just so the listeners know that they’re, that all this information will be in the show notes.

Cheryl Crow (51:38):

Yeah. Yeah. And I just, if you put in your search bar, my arthritis life.net, then my website will come up. And that’s where I have video and instructions for life hacks, for arthritis and interviews with other people, including some moms with arthritis and not just arthritis, but other like autoimmune diseases. So yeah,

Karena Skibinsky (52:00):

Lots of good information. Well, Cheryl, thank you so much for your time today, for your insight for sharing your story with us. I had such a good time on this conversation and I learned so much from you. So thank you so much. Oh, thank you

Cheryl Crow (52:13):

So much. I’m just really, really honored to be here and I’m excited to see more or hear more episodes of this really, really important podcast cuz looking at the mom and taking care of her needs is such a missed area often in postpartum care. So I’m just thrill that you’re doing this

Karena Skibinsky (52:34):

And there you have it. Episode number 11 of the, what about the mama podcast? Thanks again for joining me on this chat with Cheryl. I truly hope that our conversation warmed your heart like it did mine and gave you a bit more insight into what it’s like to be a vivacious, enthusiastic mama living with a chronic illness. Have any thoughts you’d like to share? You can find me on Instagram at what about underscore the mama to share any comments, questions, or even just to say hi, I’d love to hear from you also, if you like the podcast, please subscribe so that you know, when a new episode airs and if you have a a minute leave a review on apple podcast, that’s one way that other mamas will learn about this podcast until next time.