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Patient Stories, Podcast

From Feeling Lonely and Broken to Feeling Strong: Episode 66 of Arthritis Life Podcast

April 25, 2022
56 min read
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Summary:

As a child and teenager growing up with juvenile idiopathic arthritis, Jen Blair often felt lonely, isolated and “broken.” Fast forward to the present: Jen is a  mother of three, accepts her “new normal” and has come to see herself as strong rather than broken. 

This episode delves into Jen’s story and includes details about her different prescription treatments, how she came to embrace exercise and dietary contributions to her health, her pregnancy and parenting journey and her experiences both with working and being on disability.

Episode at a glance:

  • Jen’s diagnosis story of juvenile idiopathic arthritis
  • Jen’s treatment journey over the years: biologics, exercises, nutrition, serial casting (which is no longer done for JIA) and more
  • Pregnancy with JIA & RA
  • What is it like being a mom of three children while living with JIA? 
  • Jen’s emotional journey: as a teenager and young adult, experiences loneliness, isolation, yearning for acceptance, and feelings of being “broken.”
  • Jen’s experiences working in different environments and then going on disability
  • Jen’s advice for people newly diagnosed with inflammatory arthritis

Medical disclaimer: 

All content found on Arthritis Life public channels was created for generalized informational purposes only. The content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

Episode Sponsors

Rheum to THRIVE, a community support & education program Cheryl created to help people with rheumatic disease go from overwhelmed, confused and alone to confident, supported and connected. Join the waitlist for the next group, which starts in September 2022!

Rheumatoid Arthritis Roadmap, a self-paced online course Cheryl created that teaches you how to confidently manage your physical, social and emotional life with rheumatoid arthritis. 

Speaker Bios:

Jen Blair: My name is Jen and I have had Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis (JRA, a condition now known as “JIA” of Juvenile Idiopathic Arthritis) for 36 years, diagnosed when I was one year old. I have had many painful experiences, but through my pain I have learned so much. I’ve been hospitalized twice as a child, cereal casted two times, accidentally cut removing those casts and have got some pretty lows. Even during the most painful experiences, I will never let them stop me. I may look different doing things but I can do anything. Watch me!

Cheryl Crow

Cheryl is an occupational therapist who has lived with rheumatoid arthritis for nineteen years. Her life passion is helping others with rheumatoid arthritis figure out how to live a full life despite arthritis, by developing tools to navigate physical, emotional and social challenges. She formed the educational company Arthritis Life in 2019 after seeing a huge need for more engaging, accessible, and (dare I say) FUN patient education and self-management resources.

Episode links:

Full Episode Transcript:

[Introductory music]

Hi! My name is Cheryl Crow, and I am passionate about helping people navigate real life with arthritis. I’ve lived with rheumatoid arthritis for 17 years and I’m also a mom, teacher, and occupational therapist. I’m so excited to share my tricks for managing the ups and downs of life with arthritis. Everything from kitchen life hacks, and how to respond when people say, “You don’t look sick”, stress, work, sex, anxiety, fatigue, pregnancy, and parenting with chronic illness — no topic will be off limits here. I’ll also talk to other patients and share their stories and advice. Think of this as your chance to sit down and chat with a friend who’s been there. Ready to figure out how to manage your arthritis life? Let’s get started. 

Cheryl:

I’m so excited to have Jen Blair here today. Welcome, Jen! Could you let the audience know a little bit about yourself, like where you live and what your relationship to arthritis is? 

Jen:

Yeah. I live in San Diego, California, and I have had arthritis for 36 years. I was diagnosed when I was one years old. I woke up one morning with a swollen ankle. And my parents thought I got caught in the crib. And they took the doctor just to be safe. And they pretty much had like, a very quick diagnosis, and said she has juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. My parents were definitely surprised by that. And that definitely started my journey with RA and JRA for this 36 years of my life. So yeah, that’s pretty much the short version. 

Cheryl:

Yeah, no. And that is so different. I’ve had a lot of conversations with people who have had juvenile arthritis from a young age, or versus people like me, who kind of lived a quote-unquote ‘normal life’ which normal is a problematic word, but you know, an able-bodied life until X age and then suddenly experienced a deterioration. So, you know, some people think, “Oh,” you know, “I wish I had not gotten it until I was older so I could experience, you know, what it was like to live a different way,” but other people say, “Oh, I’m glad I got it since I was younger, because I don’t know any different.” Like, do you know, do you have any opinions on that? Sorry, I’m like jumping into like the — 

Jen:

No, jump away. I’m good. I think, no matter when you get diagnosed, and like, it’s something that you have to live with for the rest of your life, I think it’s going to be challenging. I think that maybe there’s a little bit of benefit getting it super young, because it does — it is all you know, you know, it’s not like you’ve, you know, you’ve had this abundant life where you’re just running and playing and jumping, and now suddenly your body’s like kind of turned on you. It’s just is something more like I’ve just had it, so I’ve had to learn to live with it my whole life. And so, I think it’s a little easier. But no matter what, I mean, it’s challenging.

Cheryl:  

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, for the record, I always try to say this for people who might be you know, we’re recording this in 2022. And the medications currently available and other treatments available for people diagnosed nowadays are a lot better than the medications available like 37 or 36 years ago. Sorry. 

Jen:

Yeah. 

Cheryl:

Yeah. So, that’s — so, I only say that so that, you know, people, you shouldn’t compare your — you shouldn’t expect your prognosis, if you’re, let’s say, a mom listening right now, or dad, who has a child who’s one years old who gets diagnosed. Their prognosis or their, what’s expected to occur with them physically in the next, you know, lifetime is a lot less serious in many ways because of the newer medications. So, when you were diagnosed, it’s pretty much there weren’t that many, you know, treatments. So, can you tell us a little bit about what were the different treatments that you have tried over the years?

Jen: 

So, right when I was young, they started me on medication right away. One of those was called Naprosyn and Pediapred, which I’m sure most people haven’t heard of, unless you’re like a doctor has been around for a while. And they were just like liquid you just squirt into my mouth or my mom would hide it in my applesauce and stuff like that, you know? And that kind of helped. And I did have like physical therapy twice a week for most of my life. And then I was on like, Plaquenil which is that pill and honestly, I didn’t feel like it did much for me. But, you know, they said take it so I took it. 

And then I would, as I got older, a couple of experimental ones called gamma-globulin, which never made it to the market. But um, I did feel it helped. And then, eventually, I got on the biologics. I’ve been on Enbrel, Humira, Remicade. There’s that one they inject into my thigh that I’m supposed to inject; I didn’t do very good with that. I guess it’s called — I don’t know. But I’ve taken methotrexate. I’ve just, I’ve just been on tons of them, you know, and I’ve taken methotrexate like in a shot, in a pill, liquid in my mouth, like everything. It was really gross. And I did not have good side effect with it. I always throw up every time I would get the injection on my butt and stuff. 

Cheryl:

Oh, I’m so sorry. 

Jen:

Yeah, a lot of it was crazy, like even in school, like something would just make me sleepy and so, I would just like fall asleep during school. So, the medication journey for me has been a long one and like lots of things and, you know, like, well, what’s the side effect for this or, you know, maybe she won’t be able to have children. Like, my mom had to make decisions when I was younger for me about medication because I was so little, you know. My, all my parts aren’t grown and all that sort of stuff. So, as far as medicines, that’s it. And now, I’m currently just only on one, and it’s just Celebrex. And I just take a pill. And then, other than that I tried to manage it with like my diet and stuff like that.

Cheryl:  

Yeah, and people are always really curious about dietary interventions, or kind of the umbrella of lifestyle, which includes diet, exercise, sleep, stress management, all the kind of things you can do throughout your day. So yeah, what are some of the things that have worked well for you and your kind of lifestyle toolbox?

Jen: 

So, when I was younger, it was really hard. Like, my flares were really, really bad. And I would just be in pain all the time. I would crawl to the pencil sharpener at school or crawl around in my house because my knees were hurt so bad. And so, when I was younger, for me, it was a lot harder. Like, it was hard to move. I had, like, they serial casted me a couple of times, I had splints, I had all sorts of stuff like that. And then, as I’m older now, I do exercise a lot. Like, I go to the gym a lot, because, you know, if you don’t use it, you lose it. For me. Personally, in my journey. And I try to control more like with my diet and stuff like that, and just the things I eat. And then, I try to minimize, now, the medications I take. 

So that, just because it wears and tears in your body, and I’ve had it for so long, and the medications I’ve had over, like you said, in the past weren’t as — not as good, but just, there was more side effects and more harm can be caused to your body long-term. So, now, that’s what I do to manage it now. Like, you know, and I have pain every day. It’s just a matter of living with it. And like, you know, even though you feel it, like, I don’t let it stop me.

Cheryl:  

Wow, that’s — that’s really powerful. And yeah, I mean, it’s so fascinating to me how different people respond differently to medications. I do know that like, the sooner you can get your disease under control, the better, you know, for your long-term prognosis. So, if you unfortunately have had, you know, multiple years add up of less well-controlled rheumatoid arthritis, then you’re kind of playing catch up the rest of your life, you know, which is which is unfortunate. But I love your attitude that you’re not kind of not going to let it stop you to the greatest extent you can. 

And I want to kind of give even more details, if you’re willing to kind of share, like a day in your life. You know, what specifically does exercise look like to you? Because a lot of people get confused. They’re like, “Do I have to run? Should I do like lower impact, like bicycling or swimming?” You know, what has worked for you?

Jen: 

Yeah, well, it’s, I mean, it’s definitely gonna look different for everyone because every body is different, you know what I mean? And everyone has a different stage with their — I don’t want to say illness, but you know what I mean — with arthritis or whatever they’re suffering with or whatever their struggle with in their body. 

Um, so for me, I do, I go to the gym, probably like, at least four days a week. And there are times — and my gym journey in itself has been like long. Oh, you know, like, oh, at least for at least 10 years I’ve been going, and it would be a lot of like — at first I would just do elliptical because it’s low impact on the knees, you know, and at that time, my knees were still real. Both my knees are replaced now. And so, I would just do a low impact, I would do swimming. And that would help just to even, you know, move the body like that and stuff. 

And then, now, like 10 years into the gym, my gym journey, I do lots of stuff; things I didn’t think I could do. Like, I’ll do deadlifts, I’ll do stairs. I’ll do just like resistance weights and stuff like that, like a lot of the machines for me are helpful because they work one muscle group at a time, you know, to isolate a movement. And so, that is helpful and I can control the weight, the resistance on my joints, because I can be — I can do more muscle wise. but I feel the pain in my joints first. So. that that for me is a little bit of a struggle. But I still, I just put I push through it because I know that that’s what my body needs.

Cheryl:  

Well, and yeah, there’s such — there’s so much that still emerging with like pain science, you know, in pain medicine, but one of the things is that in the older days, they used to say, you know, always listen to your pain. And if you have any pain at all, that’s a signal to slow down. And that’s considered ‘outdated’ now and as like an overall like, blanket statement. It’s true for certain things. 

Like, for example, after my C-section, the pain was so severe that it was so clear that like, I shouldn’t move that area, you know, as much as I could. But with chronic pain from a chronic ongoing condition, like juvenile idiopathic arthritis or rheumatoid arthritis, it’s like, we have to kind of learn the differences between the different kinds of pain because for me, yeah, like stiffness and a little bit of resistance to movement, that pain gets way better with movement, you know, and, but if it’s a hot — like, when I have a hot flare up, that’s like, really, I’m really inflamed, then I have to slow down a little bit. But it’s so true that, like you said earlier, if you don’t use it, you lose it.

 And also, like, kind of they say, joints in motion — like, motion is lotion, you know. And they actually have this great campaign, you know, ‘Joints in Motion’ a while ago, but yeah, that’s — did you learn all of it on your own? Or did you have a personal trainer? How did that work?

Jen: 

No, I did. A lot of it I learned on my own. And then, more recently, I’ve done just like a bunch of research for stuff that I wouldn’t know that my body wouldn’t eat in, you know, when I’m working out or when I’m moving. And the way I move it. And there’s, I mean, personal trainers are super great. I mean, they’re expensive. So, I just kind of learned myself, because that was easier for me. 

But yeah, I definitely think like, when you were saying like, you know, when you feel pain, you should stop. And I think that yeah, that is completely true to a degree for us. Like you said, if you’re in like a big flare, and you know like you’re not good, I wouldn’t push it. But like, you know when you can kind of push it a lot of times if you know your body, you know what I mean? Like, you know, I can go a little further, you know. And so, if you can and able to, I would say do it, but if not, definitely listen to your body. I’m a huge fan of that, too.

Cheryl:  

Yeah, no, I think that’s one of the most confusing things – people in the beginning when they get newly diagnosed. They’re like, I’m getting all these mixed messages. Like, you have to exercise, but also listen to your body. And honestly, I just say to be realistic, it’s going to take trial and error. And what that means is sometimes you’re going to overdo it and feel really crappy the next day and like just go into it expecting that, and know that as time goes on, you’ll find like your sweet spot or like your sweet spot is a little bit of a moving target sometimes. Like, sweet spot meaning, you know, the just right amount of exercise for you. When I might, maybe certain days like, like right now I have a little bit of a stuffy nose and a little bit of like I’m fighting something. So, I know that this isn’t the day to like push myself on the exercise bike, but maybe next week, I’ll be able to.

Jen: 

Yeah, you know, maybe it’s your body just wants rest. So, give it what it needs, you know.

Cheryl:  

Yeah, yeah. And then you also mentioned like diet and nutrition. That’s a really fascinating kind of slash stressful topic to me, because I feel like the data, like the scientific data on the evidence for exercise for rheumatoid arthritis is very uniform and pretty clear that like, there might be small differences if people have comorbidities. Like, if you also have ME, myalgic encephalomyelitis, like you definitely don’t want to do sprints and stuff that gets your heart rate up too high because that’s gonna lead to more fatigue. But in general, if your main issue is rheumatoid arthritis, it’s like, getting moving is good, you know, no matter what. 

But nutrition is like this rabbit hole to me, and 19 years into it, I’m still figuring out, you know. I have had a lot of GI issues, gastrointestinal issues — sorry, I’m interviewing you, I’ll give it back to you. But the point is, I raised that idea, and like you said earlier, we’re all different but nutrition seems to be an area where we’re all even more different than other areas because maybe one person’s like, yeah, I can walk on a flat surface for 10 minutes, someone else is like 15 minutes, someone else is like two hours, but it’s still like, we’re not that different, as opposed to like, “I eat only meat because I’m on the keto diet. And that works amazing for me,” or, “I eat no meat, and I’m on the vegan diet. And that works amazing for me,” or like, “I just eat the standard American diet for seven years,” when I was — which is like, you know, processed food and like, I mean, it wasn’t like super unhealthy. It wasn’t like eating McDonald’s every day, but I ate whatever I wanted and I was in complete medicated remission, you know. 

And so, like, because I was on Enbrel and methotrexate, which worked really well for me. So, long story short, I just love hearing about it because I get very confused about it still in my mind of like, what, you know, how to sort through all the conflicting evidence. So, tell us what you do and what works for you.

Jen: 

Okay, so, um, yeah, I was on — I just want to say, first of all, taking medication, like, I’m a huge fan of it, and I’m thankful that it’s there. And it works, you know what I mean? Like, I always know that if I need a quick fix, I can just be like, prednisone, you know? And then I won’t sleep ’cause I feel like the Hulk, you know? 

Cheryl:

Totally. Me too. I feel invincible on prednisone. 

Jen:

Yeah, I know. That’s a blessing and a curse, that one. This is long-term damage for that one. But other than that, for me, I have seen like family members in the past who also had like health issues. And not necessarily like their — partly their diet, but also the medication and just the combination of it. And then slowly, they just kind of withered. And like, my mom side had passed away, and my aunt and stuff like that, and they both kind of had illnesses. And so, like, I just decided one day, like, okay, I’m gonna just look into this, you know what I mean? Because I was like, jack-in-the-box, drinking tons of like, Coca Cola soda, and like, I was like, my diet — I was like, no, I’m good. And I would just control my arthritis with medications. Which worked at the time for me, and, you know, I was in that space at that time. 

But, you know, I just discovered, like, you know, like, oh, maybe the things I’m eating are actually affecting my inflammation and triggering my arthritis to flare up and like my joints to be stiffer and, you know? And it’s just because, like, processed sugar can be a trigger for it, and gluten, and dairy, and those are the top three for autoimmune disease that can like mess with just your body if you have an autoimmune disease. And it is what it is. Like, it sucks, like, I mean, I want to go get a double cheeseburger, you know what I mean, or whatever, I wanna get some curly fries and ranch, you know? And I can’t. I’m able to do it if I choose to put in my body. But if I don’t, you know. And so, I have tried dairy free, gluten free, and processed sugar free, I tried them all at the same time. 

And that is a process, by the way. Like, that’s not something you just decide and the next day you execute that one. Because if you’re used to eating a certain way, your whole life, you know, and then you go have this crazy lifestyle change. And you’re like, well, what doesn’t have gluten? Or what, am I just eating cardboard, and you know what I mean? And ice cubes? Yeah, so yeah, and that’s what it seems like a lot of times. And so, now, I do try to avoid gluten, and I try to avoid dairy and I try to avoid processed foods. I mean, I do eat them because I will, I’ve tasted the goodness, you know what I mean? You get me a cheesecake. And I’m like, okay, I’ll have a slice. And I just, I choose to put that in my body. And I can feel the difference when I do have my diet, what my body needs for it, because your body’s needs are different, you know what I mean? And so, everyone’s body is different. So, I feel like, I feel like I’m stronger. I feel like I don’t need to run to the doctor, get a bunch of medication. Once again, not that there’s anything wrong with that, you know. TO each his own, in my opinion. You do you, and whatever works for you. And, you know, this just works for me and where I’m at in my life right now.

Cheryl:  

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I just, yeah, I’m sorry I’m jumping in. 

Jen:

No, you’re good. 

Cheryl:

Yeah, like, and I think, you know, I always tried to like pepper in little bits of evidence into the podcast, just so it’s like kind of a more interesting and fun way to like learn, you know, personal stories, but also like, some of the scientific evidence. And, you know, I just, I always say when we start talking about lifestyle, for the record, like, it’s estimated, like 90% to 95% of people with rheumatoid arthritis are going to require medication therapy to sustain long-term remission. 

That doesn’t mean that if it’s a goal of yours, like everyone should be free to have their own goals, right. Like, you know, one of my goals might be an exercise related or sleep related, your goal might be diet and nutrition related, and you could try to achieve that goal. But it’s important to know that the odds are not in your favor if you are trying that. And again, I don’t want to be depressing to anyone. But it’s important to understand, I think, that the evidence is super, super strong for the current medications for the diagnosed now. 


And the other thing is that that lack of evidence isn’t evidence of a lack. So, there’s a lot of arguments by the diet and nutrition proponents that say, wait a minute, well, there’s a lot of money in the pharmaceuticals. And that’s very true. Like, you know, my insurance pays $60,000 a year for one of my medications, you know, that’s not even mentioning other ones. So, I do expect from the evidence I’ve seen with like the gut microbiome and the relationship between the gut microbiome and the immune system and rheumatoid arthritis specifically, I think there’s just going to keep being more and better evidence for it. I just, I think people should just be aware that, who are listening, if you’re listening, you’re trying to think like, what should I — what treatments should I try that, that, you know — first of all, that there is better evidence for medicine than nutrition on its own. However, that doesn’t mean that you can’t do both, you know? 

Jen:

Absolutely.

Cheryl:

So, now we’re on a different tangent. So many people are like, why are we always saying it either/or? 

Jen:

Yeah.

Cheryl:

The reason I’m kind of positing an either/or is that I’ve seen a lot of people who do jump headfirst. They’re like, “I don’t even want to try medication. I want to do only diet and nutrition,” and then they end up regretting it later because you can’t turn the clock back on joint damage, unfortunately. So, anyway, sorry, that’s my little soapbox. 

Jen: 

No, you’re good. And I agree with you. And so, and also for me, like, I have been in this for like 36 years, too. So, like, I’ve tried so many things that now I’m just in a place where I do do the medication, the low amount, and then I try with a diet and, you know, like as well.

Cheryl:  

Yeah. And I think I’m so glad you mentioned the three main triggers that I think are from what I’ve read the most common triggers for inflammation. Like, sugar, gluten, and dairy. I’ve been gluten free for over 10 years. Sadly, it hasn’t had a noticeable effect on my RA that I can feel. Now, this is the other problem. I never know if I hadn’t gotten gluten free, would my rheumatoid arthritis have progressed faster, you know what? Isn’t that frustrating? 

Jen:

Yeah, for sure.

Cheryl:

When we try something you don’t know, well, did was it about to get worse, and I’ve stopped it from getting worse or slowed it down? But it helps my digestion a lot. Like I used to be chronically constipated. I didn’t even know that I was until I cut out gluten and then I was like, oh, this is what normal bowel movements feel like. Sorry to be gross. 

Jen:

No, you’re good.

Cheryl:

But yeah, and like dairy. Oh, my gosh, like I feel dairy immediately. I do occasionally have you know cheese, like lower lactose dairy, but it’s like — I get mucousy. I can feel my throat gets mucousy almost immediately. Isn’t that interesting. 

Jen:

That’s crazy. Your body reacts like right away to it. 

Cheryl:

Yeah, yeah. And it’s kind of telling you, huh, I don’t really like this. And I was gonna, I was gonna ask you about like fatigue, because sorry, this kind of feels like left field. But, you know, a lot of times people, their fatigue can be just as difficult to cope with as pain. Do you have fatigue, like currently? 

Jen:

I don’t. I don’t think I do have it currently. I think I did more as a child, when my arthritis was way more active. But now that it’s more under control, I think I have less fatigue. And then, even when I do have fatigue, like I have three children. And so, even when I do have fatigue, like I just — like I probably don’t even acknowledge it. I just keep going in life. Because that’s just what I’ve done my whole life.

Cheryl:  

I feel like I swear, the strongest people I know are the people who have chronic illnesses. I thought I was strong before getting this and now I’ve had to learn, you know. But how old are your children?

Jen:  

So, my daughter is 7, and my two boys are 9 and 11.

Cheryl:  

Oh my gosh, seven, nine. So, they’re all exactly — wow, you spaced them perfectly. 

Jen:

Yeah. [Laughs]

Cheryl:

Well, and that’s a frequently asked question I get, is like tips and tricks or wisdom from your experience being a mom managing, you know, you have juvenile — what was called juvenile rheumatoid arthritis and now, it’s called juvenile idiopathic arthritis. But just for the record, the prognosis for that is a little different than rheumatoid arthritis. Like, it actually is more likely to go into remission than adult rheumatoid arthritis. But at any rate, so what, what — I mean, we could talk for hours, I’m sure about, you know, did you have good pregnancies? Let’s start with that. Like, I went into remission during my pregnancy. What were your pregnancies like?

Jen: 

Well, yeah. Well, first, I didn’t even know if I could get pregnant. I had never tried. But it turns out, I’m very fertile. And I did get pregnant and, you know, and I, my pregnancy, so. So, as far as pregnancy symptoms, like I was just like, super tired. Like, I’d go to the store and come home and want to sleep. And that’s just because I was pregnant. I didn’t think it had anything to do with arthritis. But I did go into remission because I stopped all medication. I mean, I talked to the doctor. And they’re like, “Well, you can keep doing your infusion if you want. But if you don’t want to, like it’s okay, and well, if you need it, we’ll help you.” And so, I was like, okay, I’d rather not just because I wasn’t sure, you know, and my first time being pregnant, and so, it was all new to me. And then, but I was fine. And I was actually fine until I stopped breastfeeding. Like, that far out. And then, once I stopped then it was like, it came back with vengeance. But yeah, so that was difficult.

Cheryl:  

Yeah, no, and that’s really common. Mine started, I had a postpartum flare up when I was still breastfeeding. Like, it started like about four weeks postpartum. And I also, like you, I mean, my son’s eight years old. And at the time, that was a lot more conservative, advice with medications. It was, you know, go off them if you can; there’s not enough evidence. 

Now, there’s a lot better evidence and I’ll link to that in the show notes from the American College of Rheumatology for which medications are actually found to be safe during pregnancy. Because it’s also if you don’t end up getting that pregnancy remission, it’s also not good for the baby to have like a lot of inflammation in the mom’s body. But anyway, yeah, like I started having the flare while I was still breastfeeding. I was like, darn it. I wanted to be one of those people who you know, the breastfeeding, you know, makes the flare up delayed.

Jen: 

I think with my first son, it actually didn’t stop before — the flare started before. And I ended breastfeeding then on my third, it was it was the longest I had gone. And then I ended up like, stop breastfeeding because I went on the infusion again. And so, that was — that was, my first one, I was actually like that. And it was actually like a hard decision at that point, because I want to give them my milk as long as I possibly could. But I did. I did pump a lot and I was quite the producer. So no, it was what it was. I had bags in the freezer. 

Cheryl:  

Oh, that’s great. Well, yeah, did you — I got pregnant the first try too, and like you, I had no idea. I had been medicated for, you know, at that point, 12 years, you know, heavily medicated for rheumatoid arthritis. And so, I was like, you know, and I’ve been on methotrexate. And methotrexate, just for the record, you definitely are not supposed to get pregnant with it. But it doesn’t have any long-term effects on fertility that I’m aware of. But I’ll post to the American College of Rheumatology resources on that. But, um, but I was still kind of like, okay, and we got pregnant on the first try. 

Jen:

Oh, yeah. Same. Yup.

Cheryl:

Yeah. So, I was like, I was like, shocked. I was like, look at my body, you know? Look at my body doing this. And then breastfeeding. I was like, wow, this is working. Like, we did have to supplement with formula because I wasn’t like a perfect producer, you know, but it was at least like, I’m like, wow, this is, you know, I almost had like, too low of expectations, you know. I kind of lowered my expectations so I wouldn’t be disappointed. And then I was like, first timers luck. Yeah. But um, but, you know, did you have difficulties when you had those postpartum flare ups? I mean, parenting is a really physical job, you know. Diapers, clothing, picking them up, putting them down. Just the relentless — it’s relentless. Like, did you experience difficulty with that? Or were you just like, I am woman, hear me roar? Or both?

Jen: 

No, I mean, I mean, I’m not both. Well, both in the sense of like, I did what I had to do to take care of the baby, you know what I mean? But it was, it was really hard. And it was — it kind of came as a surprise, especially the first time because I didn’t expect it to come back, like, so hard on me, you know, because I was on the infusion at that time before and I was fine. I was coasting, and you know what I mean, and then I cut it off. And then like, not being on any meds, and then just feeling the full force of like my arthritis attacking my joints. 

I mean, it was really difficult. Like, there would be times where I would feel pain when I like, lifted, you know, the baby or whatever, you know. I still lifted him, you know. And even though I was in pain, that’s the not the ‘Hear me roar’ part. But that’s the part where I did whatever you have to take care of your child, you know what I mean? But I did, I acted quickly when I decided to stop breastfeeding. Like, I, you know, I was like, “Hey, I need something,” you know, even if you gave me a shot of cortisone on my butt to get me to tide over until I get on, you know what I mean?

Cheryl:

That’s so funny they put it in your butt. Like, I’ve always done the prednisone pills. That’s so interesting. 

Jen:

Oh, yeah. Well, this was cortisone.

Cheryl:

Oh, cortisone. Oh, I’m sorry. 

Jen:

They did the prednisone — yeah, they did prednisone on my butt too, the yellow one. Yeah.

Cheryl:

Yeah. Yeah, that’s so interesting. Anyway, sorry. 

Jen:

Yeah, I did the pills too. That was gross. Eugh.

Cheryl:  

No. You know what, I actually want to do an episode, I don’t know what’s wrong with me but I want to do an episode of like, weirdest slash grossest things we’ve had as a result of rheumatoid arthritis. I also, I got a wart in my toenail. Like, who gets that? But it was like supposedly, like because warts are viral. So, it was like, the podiatrist — but anyway, total side note. Yeah. 

So, you had, yeah – I had that – it’s such a hard feeling when you have pain picking up your child because like, from a psychology perspective, like from my classical conditioning perspective, right, every time you ring the bell, the dog like salivate because it thinks it’s gonna get, you know, a treat. If every time you pick up your precious child that you like, that you wanted and you love, if every time it hurts you, like some part of your brain is like, I don’t want to pick it up anymore, you know? Or like, I’m kind of mixed about this. 

So, I think that’s one of the most emotionally challenging things for me was having to adjust to learning how to be a parent, all the overwhelming — I found it very overwhelming just choosing, you know, which bottle to use, which this, which becomes just endless decisions. I think it’s almost a blessing and a curse being trained as a paediatric occupational therapist, right, because you know, all the things that could go wrong.

Jen: 

Yeah. That’s true.

Cheryl:  

But you seem pretty, like, emotionally stable. Like, just what I know of you like, what’s your secret?

Jen: 

I don’t know. I’m always pretty balanced though. You know, like, and the times when, like — I’ll be honest, like, there’s a part of me that if I go like deep enough into myself, or like, think about as a child, me as a child, like, it makes me, that makes me really sad because like, it was just such a struggle. And I don’t think I’ve actually dealt with it. 

I would say that there are people who have chronic pain or illness and the stresses from childhood who like, probably had trauma as a result of it. Like, whether it was like, from other people, you know, I mean, like I can tell you horror stories about when they serial casted me and took the cast off and how horrible it went. And like, I don’t know. And so, yeah, but other than that emotionally, I’m just — I’m usually just like very stable. I know. I don’t know why.

Cheryl:  

Maybe it’s your brain chemistry. We need scientists to study you. But like, so I did get — it’s funny, you anticipated my next question – like, after the treatments was going to be, you know, okay, so I have two different questions. I actually do want to go into the serial casting first, but I do want to also, if you’re up for it, to talk a little bit about what it was like to have so much pain as a child and like socially, how that affected you. 

But yeah, so when you say — I’m just gonna say for the audience — when you say serials casting, it’s S-E-R-I-A-L, and it’s not something that’s done anymore for rheumatoid arthritis to my knowledge. It can be done with cerebral palsy, or like, what they call a fixed contractures or like fixed deformities to straighten or try to increase the range of motion in an area of your body. But so, you have experienced serial casting. Can you – can you tell our audience a little bit of what you want to share about it? You don’t have to share every single terrible thing.

Jen: 

No, yeah. I was serial casted twice. And so, I guess back then, that long ago, now they just fuse a joint surgically. And so, my knees started to bend and not straighten. And they’re like, well, she can’t walk with bent knees. So, we’re gonna bring her in the hospital, like, force her knee straight, put a cast on it, come back in two days, take it off, forcibly straighten it, put a cast on it, and come back, and forcibly — so, serial. So, over and over and over. I don’t like to say like a serial killer, but that’s what people think. It happens a lot. 

Cheryl:

Yeah. That’s how it’s spelled. 

Jen:

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. The first time was in San Diego. And it was the horrible. And like, it was all the way up to my thighs, and I was in school. And that was just awful. Like, I tell people, I was a loser in school. And they’re like, honey, you weren’t. I was like, you weren’t there. You weren’t there. I was. Kids are mean, but, you know. 

Cheryl:

Were you on crutches, or was it both knees? Or just one? 

Jen:

It was both knees. I was on crutches before I even had it just to help my knees because they were bending. And then they did serial casting. And so, the story with the one crazy time was that I was having them taken off one time. And it was like, okay, so they have like the fun saw now that just vibrates and you can touch it. They didn’t have that saw 36 years ago. They had a big scary saw. And this girl was taking off the casts and they did the right side, the inside, and the outside, you know, and then they pull the cast off. And she’s cutting into it. It’s her first time. And like, I’m laying there and I’m screaming like, “It’s cutting me; it’s cutting me.” And then she’s like, “No, it’s just warm.” And so, then they’re holding me down. And I’m still screaming. And then they cut, they cut, they cut, they cut, they don’t take them off there. And at the end, they take them off and it’s like blood, blood, blood, blood, blood, blood up and down both sides of my legs. My mom walks out just crying. And I’m just laying there. It was horrible. I mean, it wasn’t like I was like haemorrhaging, but it was like cut through the skin enough to bleed a little. 

Cheryl:

Oh, my god, that makes me sad and angry for you that you had to go through —

Jen:

Me too. I don’t actually think I’ve dealt well with it. I just think I was just like, oh, it could be worse. But like that was really traumatic as a child. 

Cheryl:

They could have sawed my whole leg off and it always could be worse. It always could be worse. That’s not a reason to not feel bad for yourself. But yeah. Ugh, I’m so sorry. I think that touches a nerve for me of the nerve of not being believed. Because you were telling them and they didn’t believe you. That, to me, is like whether it’s telling them about your pain levels, or that you weren’t really cutting me, that’s huge. 

Jen:

It was crazy. Yeah, I couldn’t believe it. She just kept going and was holding me down. But I mean —

Cheryl:  

Did you — I feel like I live in a really litigious area. I feel like people around me in my area in this Seattle suburbs would have like sued or like, at least complained, like legally.

Jen:

I know. I don’t know.

Cheryl:

Medical errors happen. Like, that’s the sad reality is that doctors and residents, they are human beings who make mistakes. But hopefully that they learned something from that, you know, or like, did they ever apologize to you or anything?

Jen: 

I don’t recall them apologizing to me. I don’t know, maybe my parents. Maybe to my parents, but yeah, but she never. 

Cheryl:

How old were you? 

Jen:

I was probably like, eight or nine then. 

Cheryl:

Okay, yeah, you see, you’re definitely older — old enough to be believed. Like, this is such a nerve for me. Like, when my son was at a dentist appointment. He was um, they were putting this thing to get to get an X-ray. And I have a really strong gag reflex and he does too, and it was like in the back, you know, the thing in the back that you have to munch on or whatever, like, you know. And he said it hurt, like it jams into your throat a little bit and it hurt sometimes. And she goes, the lady doing it was like, “It doesn’t hurt, it doesn’t hurt,” and I was like, hold on. He said it hurts. Like, it hurts. He is not the kind of kid that will just say it hurts when it doesn’t. He is trying really — well, also because I had been bribing him. I told him, you know, like I said, if he did — so, he is motivated. Like, he is motivated to do this, he is not trying to get out of it. It hurts. 

And I think it’s just, it’s so egregious how kids are not believed in general. And then, also many adults are not believed, so. Ugh, I’m so sorry. But um, you know, you were able to recover, hopefully. Did they have to like, or did you put band aids on, or how did that work? 

Jen:

Yeah, there’s band aids up and down my legs. 

Cheryl:

Oh, my gosh. 

Jen:

I know. 

Cheryl:

Oh, this is horrible. I’m very claustrophobic. So, also, the idea of being held down is very upsetting. 

Jen:

Yeah, it was. Like, the fact that I wasn’t like heard or acknowledged. I was just like, wow. Like, oh, that’s where you learn your voice doesn’t matter. You know what I mean? 

Cheryl:

Yes. Yeah. You know, in general, pediatric rheumatologists have like a good reputation in the medical field for being like, very, like good bedside manner. And like, was it your rheumatologist who did this? Or was it like a casting department? 

Jen:

No. Yeah, it was just someone at the time at the Children’s Hospital I went to. It wasn’t, wasn’t a rheumatologist, it was — I actually think it was a physical therapist. I mean, she said it was her first time. And I think there was maybe no one else there to do it. But she shouldn’t have been doing that.

Cheryl:  

No. She should have listened to you, especially if it’s your first time, to have that hubris to be like, “Oh, well, you’re not really bleeding,” like, how do you know if you’ve never done it before? Sorry. I want to write a strongly worded letter to her.

Jen:

Yeah. I know.

Cheryl:

Well, And so, that does bring me to the question about, you know, being a young child with juvenile arthritis, a condition that so many people don’t understand, you know, what was that like socially? Like, did you have any friends that were kind of there for you that like maybe helped you in school? Or was it like, you said, you were — what did you say earlier? You were like a dork, or something?

Jen: 

Oh, a total loser. I was a loser. Yeah, a dork.

Cheryl:  

No, don’t talk about my friend that way!

Jen: 

Yeah, haters! No, just kidding. 

Cheryl:

Yeah, so, what — can you give me some examples? Or what did it feel like? 

Jen:

Oh, it was — like, I was super lonely as a kid. And I only think I’ve only acknowledged that recently in my older age, you know what I mean? But and I wanted, like, I wanted to be accepted. I wanted friends. And there were like, a couple, you know. Of course, part of me was like, “Oh, they’re just pity friends,” you know what I mean? 

Because you could never tell, because I was the one leaving early. I was the one falling asleep in class. I was one who clearly had a physical issue. I walked different. I had casts and crutches, you know what I mean? 

So I was, you know, people would make fun of the way I walked, you know, down the hallways and stuff like that. And so, I mean, I didn’t have a lot of friends. There were probably like two girls who would hang out here and there with me and stuff like that in elementary school, and then junior high, hardly anyone again. But junior high’s just a very weird time for everybody, let alone the girl who’s like super different, the only one in the school like that. 

And then, high school. I mean, I was definitely a loner in high school, and probably a loser too. But definitely loner. I was just different, you know. Like, I was okay, sitting, eating my hot pocket, drinking my Coke, just watching everyone, you know. Like, I became like the watcher. And there were a couple of people I knew, you know what I mean? But we didn’t like hang out and stuff all the time. 

So, you know, there’s some people on the bus I would talk to, but so, socially, it was hard. Like, I was always — I always felt different from everybody, you know. I felt broken. And then, you know, and then even now, I still struggle feeling broken. And then, people are like, “You’re not,” and I’m like, uh, my reflection –  I have a mirror, you know what I mean? Because I don’t have the kind of arthritis like, like a lot of people say it’s a silent disease and you can’t see it.

Cheryl:

Like, it’s invisible.

Jen:

Yeah, invisible. And it is for a lot of people. That’s just not my story though. Mine is not. Mine is very, you know, like, I walk better now because the knees are fake. But I still walk a little different, you know what I mean? And like, like parts of my body have moved or whatever, like my wrist looks different.

Cheryl:

Yeah. Like, if you look, you can see like, I don’t have very severe but you can kind of see like the enlarged knuckles or like the lack of, you know, full range of motion. Yeah. 

Jen:

Oh, yeah. And I’ve seen lots of doctors for – and they’ve mentioned fusing. They’ve mentioned replacements. Not wrist though, I don’t want to do that. They’re like, “Just give it a try.”

Cheryl:

Oh, yeah. I was gonna say, I’ve never really heard — because the wrist is not actually like  — it’s a joint, but it’s actually like the two bones, the radius and the ulna, and then there’s like 11 little tiny bones here. So that’s a lot like. I don’t even know how they would do that. 

Jen:

Yeah. Especially if it’s not even normal to begin with. Like, yours looks — mine looks much different than yours. 

Cheryl:

My wrist is not very affected. Yeah, yeah. It was only my left one and you can’t really see it. You can’t see anything. But after having Charlie, I think I just — I think it was honestly overuse, like, where I was holding on my left side and I’m right handed. But yeah, I know, people who’ve had wrist fusions but not wrist replacements.

Jen:

Yeah, they definitely would recommend more of a wrist fusion for me. But I just, I mean, my wrist definitely looks different, and I hate that about me, and it’s hard every summer to get tank tops on and just walk out and be who I am. But I do it. 

But they, yeah, they said, probably not a replacement, but they would fuse it in a heartbeat. But I think it’s more functional the way it is, even though it looks different. And like, there’s not much joint left. And it’s kind of moved a little bit.

Cheryl:  

But yeah, it’s interesting. You said, you know, you felt broken and still struggle with that. I know. That reminds me a lot of talking to, um, I talked to Karol Ruth Silverstein who had juvenile rheumatoid arthritis and wrote a book called ‘Cursed’ about it. Have you heard of her book? 

Jen:

No, but I’m definitely interested.

Cheryl:

It’s really good. Like, and I had her on the podcast, so I’ll link to her episode. But it’s like, there’s so much what’s called ‘inspiration porn’ out there about people with disabilities. Like, you know, “Jen had juvenile arthritis, but she didn’t let it get her down! She still did everything other kids did!” That’s not like –  that’s still valuing able-bodied people over disabled people, right? To say, like, “It’s okay, I can still do everything!” Like, no, the point is, we can’t do everything. And we still deserve respect and love and so forth. 

So anyway, her book is in the voice of a teenager who has juvenile arthritis who is not — her name’s Ricky and she really — I mean, she is not the model patient. She’s not like, “It’s okay,” you know, she is like, “This sucks!”  Like, she’s cursing. Like, ‘Cursed’, it kind of has like multiple meanings like she’s cursing about it. She’s like, “Fuck this situation!”  Sorry, we can swear on this podcast. It’s mine, I can do what I want. 

Yeah, and it’s so different – ‘cause I’m like a little — I’m a Little Miss Perfect. Like I’m, I still — I struggle with being like a goody two shoes and like wanting everyone to think I’m perfect. And that’s totally not healthy, by the way. But I like, when I was starting out, starting off with my rheumatoid arthritis journey, I wanted to just do everything right. Like, the fact that my first medications worked, like Enbrel and methotrexate, I was like, “I’m the perfect patient! La, la, la, look at me,” and everything’s great. 

And then when things stopped working, I was like, what is happening? Like from, you know, from such highs to such lows. But yeah, again, sorry, I’m gonna connect one of my thoughts here. The novel is so good at kind of talking about that isolation and that kind of like — there’s a word for it. But when you’re so afraid someone’s gonna reject you that you reject them first, or you say something that, you know, like, I don’t — I’m not gonna let you get close to me, because I’m worried you’re gonna reject me, so I’m just gonna reject you.

Jen: 

It’s almost like self-sabotage, kind of. 

Cheryl:

That’s — yes. Yes. 

Jen:

Before you hurt me, I’m gonna like, hurt you or end this.

Cheryl:  

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And so, I think if anyone’s experiencing like, what you’re talking about, that isolation, that book, I think, is helpful because it just, it helps you at least, even if you’re in your quote-unquote ‘real life’ still isolated, that you can at least know that other people have experienced, you know, you’re not actually alone. Does that make sense? 

Jen:

Yeah. 

Cheryl:

But yeah, like, I guess for me, I still, I felt really stubborn about this fact. But I’m kind of like, what is normal anyway? You know what I mean? Like, would your life be perfect if you had like, totally quote-unquote ‘normal’ shoulders or joints? I mean, like, no one’s life is — you’d find something else to worry about. I’m not giving you a pep talk. 

Do you know what I mean? Like, we have to be so careful not to think — because I fall in this trap all the time. “If I didn’t have rheumatoid arthritis, my life would be perfect.” No, it wouldn’t. No one has a perfect life, lady. You are delusional. Sorry, I was talking to myself.

Jen: 

[Laughs] For me, I’ve always said like, ‘cause the normal thing is, you know, ‘cause I want to be normal or whatever. But then there’s a point where I’m like, I am normal, but it’s normal for me. You know what I mean? It’s normal for me to walk different, it’s normal for my wrists to look like that, it’s normal for me to feel this way. You know what I mean? So, like, that is my normal, if that makes sense.

Cheryl:  

Absolutely. Yeah. And I just, before we start wrapping up, I can’t believe it’s gone by so fast. But I’m curious what you’ve done for work, because a lot of people worry, you know, how is this going to affect my career choices? Or, you know, have you been on disability? Or how has that worked?

Jen: 

So, yeah, it has affected in some ways. I’ve had jobs. Like, I’ve had a bunch of different jobs at the mall; I’ve worked at SeaWorld. And so, for me, and I have — I am on disability. For me, like, and the disability part for me was mostly just to get health insurance. Like, I don’t need anything else. But when I turned 25, I got kicked off my parent’s insurance. And then I called whatever insurance people and asked how much it would be for my own policy. And of course, I have a pre-existing, and this was like 10 years ago, and it was gonna be $800 a month. 

So, that’s when I was like, well, I either have to get like a really good job that’s not SeaWorld and all these other jobs, or, you know, just try to get disability and get the whatever, best coverage I can get. And that’s what I did that age, you know. 

And so, for me — and two, like, some people can do anything, you know, because it doesn’t affect them. Like, so I would work 40 hours a week at SeaWorld or more, but I would pay for it. Like, I didn’t have like a job where I sat and I was on like a phone or on the computer all day. Like, I was moving and cooking, and I worked in the cafeteria, and I did prep. 

And so, for me, it takes a toll. It actually took a toll on my body. And then like, then I feel like I have to, like, pick between pushing my body and what that results in the long-term for me. Like, it’s gonna make — it’s gonna wear my body down sooner than later, you know what I mean? So, like, do I pick, you know, like, sacrifice my body to work? Or, you know what I mean? Or do I try to get on disability and then work with them. 

And they have programs where you can make money on the side and stuff like that, you know, which is an option. So, for me, it’s definitely affected, like, working and like, if I didn’t have arthritis, I would want — I would have like bigger dreams, I think. Or like, at times, I think I did have bigger dreams. And then they just didn’t pan out because of my situation. And I don’t want necessarily use it as an excuse because I think we should just take responsibility, you know what I mean? Like, I could start a business. I mean, I’m not sure how or whatever. But you know what I mean?

Cheryl:  

Yeah, you could – yeah, there was less paperwork to register my business than there was to register my son for kindergarten, I will say. That’s a little bit concerning. I’m like, really? I mean, there’s — that was just the initial paperwork. But yeah.

Jen: 

Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean? And so, for me, it did. It comes at a cost. And so, it’s like, do I want to risk my health long-term? Or do I want to figure out more of a short-term thing that’s gonna make my body — easier on my body? For me.

Cheryl:  

No. And so, many people fall into that category, right. You’re not so severely, you know, disabled that you’re like, you can’t do any work. But you’re also not fully able bodied. You’re in that kind of messy middle. And the system, all the systems in our society seem to work really well if you’re on either end of the pool. I mean, not perfectly, right, but, you know, they have a lot of services for each side. 

Like, people who are really able-bodied, and people who are super, super disabled. And then there’s like that middle where you’re like, where do I even fit in? So, I appreciate you sharing that. And I think it is, when you add health insurance into the mix, it becomes a better decision for many people to, you know, go on disability if they qualify.

Jen: 

Yeah. It’s a tough thing. Because like, you really, if you are on it, like you really get stuck in it, you know what I mean? Like, you’re like, well, I can’t, you know, we can’t make more than this amount, or else you would get kicked off of it, or you know what I mean? And then you take the chance of doing something and it not working out and then you have no insurance and then you have to start back at square one. 

So, I do think like that middle ground you’re talking about is just the hard area to be in. And that’s the area like, I feel like, I’ve been stuck there before. And like, it’s just, it’s just really challenging. Especially when it’s like about your health. I’m like, well, like I said, my knees are fake. Like, those weren’t cheap, you know, like, thank God, I have insurance for them, you know, or just anything. 

I broke my leg a while back shortly after I had one of my — my second child. And like, I had surgery the very next day, like you know what I mean? Like I needed insurance for that stuff. So, it’s just the insurance thing is a hard one for me because I feel like I’m just, I get stuck in it sometimes.

Cheryl:  

Yeah, you are not the only one and definitely we need universal health care for multiple reasons, that being one of them. But the other the last question I usually like to ask is, you know, what advice do you have for someone newly diagnosed either with juvenile idiopathic arthritis or a young person — I still think of myself as a young person with rheumatoid arthritis, even though I turned 40 last year. 

Jen:

You’re still young. You’re still young.

Cheryl:

I know. I mean, it’s all relative, right? Yeah. So, what advice do you have, or just words of wisdom?

Jen: 

So, like, someone freshly diagnosed? 

Cheryl:

Yeah, yeah. 

Jen:

Okay. Um, I would say, expect your life to change. But it doesn’t always have to change in like a negative way. I would also recommend that if you can find support, whether it’s someone who’s experienced it, or a group on Facebook, or whatever, you know what I mean, reach out for help when you need it. Don’t ever let it stop you. I’m a big fan of that. Like, growing up, I always had people would tell me, “Oh, you can’t do this,” or, “She can’t do that.” And I wouldn’t be like, watch me and I would do it. I might look different doing it. But I would do it. And I actually got a tattoo on my shoulder that says — it says ‘Watch Me’.

Cheryl:  

I love that.

Jen: 

I just got this in November. Yeah. And like, it’s just kind of like something I’ve always said. And like, the mindset I’ve always had, you know, like, and I’ve always said, I’m never gonna let me and I won’t. Once again, I may look different doing something. But it’s like, you know I mean, like, I’m gonna do it, especially if it’s something — especially something I can’t do, then I’m like, well, challenge accepted, you know? 

So like, you’re gonna face challenges with it. Everything is trial and error. Whether it’s medications, exercise, your diet. Yeah, just, I would say, you know, like, there’s times where you feel like, it’s gonna possibly overtake you, because I felt that in my life and my years with it, like, you know what I mean. If I let it. But if I, you know, if I’m in charge of my body, you know what I mean, like, my body will submit to me, you know, and if you have a strong mind, you have a strong body, a strong spirit, like, I’m big on that. You’ll be strong. You know, it’s not always easy, like, don’t expect it to be easy. But you can, you know, you can do anything.

Cheryl:  

You’re seriously a tough person. I love it. I’m so glad that you came on. Like, I just, yeah, I appreciate your story. And all, you know, especially all those years of experience you have, hopefully are going to be really helpful to people listening. Sorry, that was my cat in the background meowing. I’m going to put your social media link if you’d like me to in the show notes. If you need to say it out loud, where can people find you? 

Jen: 

So, Instagram, it’s just @JenBlair3. And I’m on Facebook. Just search Jen Blair.

Cheryl:  

Awesome. Thank you so much again. 

Jen:

Yeah. Thank you so much. 

Cheryl:

Yeah, we’ll hopefully talk to you again soon.

Jen: 

Okay, thanks. 

Cheryl:

Okay. Bye. 

Jen:

Bye.

[Ending music] 

Thank you so much for listening to today’s episode. This episode is brought to you by Rheum to THRIVE, a membership and support community where you’ll learn how to develop your own THRIVE toolbox so you can live a full life despite your rheumatic disease or chronic illness. Learn more in the show notes, or by going to www.myarthritislife.net. You can also connect with me on my social media accounts on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and even TikTok. Check out the links in the show notes.