Summary:
After navigating through life one handed for decades, Dianna was unexpectedly diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis (RA) at age 60. On episode 84 of the Arthritis Life Podcast, she opens up about the roller coaster of emotions she experienced while contemplating the potential loss of function in her only hand. She and Cheryl also reflect on the best ways they’ve learned for coping with anxiety and uncertainty while living with RA.
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Episode at a Glance:
- Dianne’s Diagnosis story and subsequent emotional roller coaster
- Dianna’s Treatment Journey: Dianna went from resistant to medicines to trying a biologic and feeling a large improvement in symptoms
- The Importance of Support – Dianna shares how the Rheum to THRIVE group support & education program was a “lifeline” and helped her get out of a cycle of self-blame. She highlights the ways she learned how to explain her condition to others and process some of the social effects and pressures (such as not drinking wine)
- Anxiety and Uncertainty: Cheryl & Dianna discuss how uncertainty and not being able to be in control triggers their anxiety
- What helps you cope? “It’s a gift knowing you can’t solve it;” Dianna shares what else is in her toolbox alongside acceptance: exercise, movement, journaling, social time and more
- The role of writing and journaling in Dianna’s life
- Rapid fire questions
- Best advice for newly diagnosed patients? Encourage others to join Rheum to THRIVE or a similar program for social support; trust in the process
- Favorite arthritis gadget or tool in your arthritis toolbox: Compression gloves – Sarah from Grace & Able
- Do you have a favorite mantra or inspirational saying? – “Si combino tuto” – everything works out;
- What’s bringing you joy right now? The fall weather; essay published – 2 online
- What does it mean to you to live a good life with rheumatic disease / thrive with rheumatoid arthritis: to accept the new me; just relax into it;
Medical disclaimer:
All content found on Arthritis Life public channels was created for generalized informational purposes only. The content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Episode Sponsors
Rheum to THRIVE, a community support & education program Cheryl created to help people with rheumatic disease go from overwhelmed, confused and alone to confident, supported and connected. Join the waitlist for the next group, which starts in 2023!
Rheumatoid Arthritis Roadmap, a self-paced online course Cheryl created that teaches you how to confidently manage your physical, social and emotional life with rheumatoid arthritis.
Speaker Bios:
Dianna Cannizzo
I’m from the Bay Area in California but have been living in northern Italy for the last 22 years. I’m recently retired. I worked as an English teacher in Italy at the University and in a private school. In California I worked for 20 years as a Rehabilitation Counselor. I have a masters in Clinical Psychology. My passion now is writing. I was diagnosed with RA seven years ago and I was terrified because I only have one hand. I have come to slowly accept the challenges of this disease. I’m still learning.
Cheryl Crow
Cheryl is an occupational therapist who has lived with rheumatoid arthritis for nineteen years. Her life passion is helping others with rheumatoid arthritis figure out how to live a full life despite arthritis, by developing tools to navigate physical, emotional and social challenges. She formed the educational company Arthritis Life in 2019 after seeing a huge need for more engaging, accessible, and (dare I say) FUN patient education and self-management resources.
Episode links:
- Links to things mentioned in episode or additional listening
- Learn more about ACT: Acceptance and Commitment Therapy
- Dr Russ Harris’ book “The Happiness Trap” (affiliate link)
- What is a dynamic disability – article
- Where can you find Dianna online:
- Cheryl’s Arthritis Life Pages:
- Arthritis Life website
- Youtube channel
- Instagram @arthritis_life_cheryl
- TikTok @arthritislife
- Arthritis Life Facebook Page
- Cheryl on Twitter: @realcc
- Arthritis Life Podcast Facebook Group
Full Episode Transcript:
[Introductory music]
Cheryl:
I’m so happy to have Dianna here, all the way from Italy. How are you, Dianna?
Dianna:
I’m fine. Thank you. And I’m happy to be here.
Cheryl:
Oh, I’m so glad. Well, I guess I already gave the first part away. But can you give a quick introduction, like where you’re from and where you live? And what is your relationship to arthritis?
Dianna:
Okay. Well, I’m originally from California. But I have been living in Italy now, in Northern Italy, for the last 22 years. So, I feel like this is my home now, you know, at this phase of my life. My relationship to rheumatoid arthritis. Well, at the beginning, it was really an unwanted visitor, I would say. And I came, I became — well, RA, it just came along. Now it has come along for the ride. I’ve accepted it, and it’s with me, and it’s no longer an intruder in my life.
Cheryl:
I love that. That’s like a process a lot of people go through it first. You’re trying to get rid of it and make it go away, and minimize it. And then, there’s this beauty, too, when you can say “This is here. And I could keep moving even with it.” But I know it’s a journey. So, yeah, I’m curious to know about your diagnosis story, how did you get diagnosed? And what was that, like?
Dianna:
Well, I got diagnosed right around my 60th birthday. And so, that was really disappointing. And when I — I was so worried about getting this diagnosis. I kept like, hoping it was osteo, you know, that it was regular arthritis, and not rheumatoid arthritis. But when I got it and when it was confirmed, I was quite upset. And I was, had like, a range from feeling angry. Because I was like, I did not sign up for this, you know. And I was born with a missing hand. So, I felt like, oh, I’ve already given, you know, I’ve already worked so hard in my life to overcome the obstacles of living with one hand, and, you know, being a super duper performer. And I felt like I’d worked really hard. And now, how am I going to deal with this, you know? But mostly, I was worried and afraid. And I was afraid about how would it impact my hand. And in fact, that’s all I focused on, was my hand. And I didn’t even think, I didn’t even care if it went somewhere else. In fact, I was like, oh, go to my knees or go to my feet, you know, I just want my hand. You know, I don’t — I didn’t want anything to happen to it, so.
Cheryl:
Understandable, because you’ve already had to work so hard, like you said, over your life to accommodate having one hand, so you have your ways of doing your daily activities. And this is hugely interfering, you know, with that, so I can, I completely understand. I think it’s interesting. Yeah, like a lot of people, obviously, the majority of people are born with two hands. So, they, you know, you don’t even realize how much the loss of one hand is, is difficult, much less than if you only have one to begin with. So, anyway, I’m just pointing out the obvious. But, you know, yeah, I think that’s a really common experience to kind of hyper-focus on one aspect of it, you know. And like, I didn’t even know about the fatigue, or I didn’t really process the immune, autoimmune nature of it at all for years. I just focused on, oh, can I play soccer? And can I do my sports? Because that was a big part of my life, you know, when I got diagnosed, so it’s interesting. It’s very similar to a lot of people kind of like choosing one thing, or can I work, you know, but um, but sorry, back to the emotional part. Because yeah, I think you’ve already — something’s already been taken from you, you know, from birth; your hand. And so, now you’re like, okay, I have one hand left. Now you’re taking that function from me and you’re adding pain. And why? Why is this happening to me?!
Dianna:
Yeah. I mean, that was my fear, you know, that I would just, you know, that I would have some, you know, deformed hand. You wouldn’t be able to do anything.
Cheryl:
Yeah, yeah. And you were diagnosed while living in Italy, right?
Dianna:
That’s right. Yeah.
Cheryl:
Yeah. And I’m curious, you know, with the medical system there versus the United States, where I’m from. Was there — did you — or can you describe a little bit like what the process was like after you got diagnosed? Like, did you have to wait a long time to get follow up appointments? Or did you get, you know, were there barriers to getting medications? How did that part work?
Dianna:
Okay, so when I first got — when I first got diagnosed, it was — well, let me just back up a second. You go to like, your primary care doctor, and I went to her with the pain and everything. And I had thought maybe I had tendinitis because I had it a long time ago. So, she did a blood test right away, and the rheumatoid factor was super high. So, she sent me right away to a rheumatologist. And you don’t — the rheumatologists are in the hospital. So, you don’t go to like a private office or anything, and you go to the rheumatologist in the hospital. And so, I got in right away, because she put a special marking on the prescription saying ‘Urgent’, you know, and so — [coughs] excuse me — when I went there, they diagnosed me immediately. They were very thorough. They did, what he called, that echo, thinking of it in Italian —
Cheryl:
Ultrasound?
Dianna:
Ultrasound. Yeah, or whatever that is, if they can see the fluid and stuff.
Cheryl:
Yeah. Was it like, a little wand on your hands?
Dianna:
Yes, yeah. So, they did that. And this was a woman doctor, and she was very matter of fact. And she wrote like a, her report was like a page, “You have rheumatoid arthritis.” And I was like, “That’s it?” you know? And she prescribed what I needed and all that. And then, when you leave that appointment, the secretary sets you up for the follow up appointment right away. So, you’re in the system, and you just — and that’s how it works. And you don’t pay for it. And once, if you have a diagnosis like rheumatoid arthritis, and there’s a whole list of them, you’re exempt from paying anything. Like, you don’t, because sometimes you have to pay for blood tests and things like that. But if it’s associated with one of these exempt diseases, you don’t pay for anything. So, I don’t pay for X-rays. I don’t pay for medicine. I don’t pay for blood tests.
Cheryl:
I’m hearing people right now writing down notes to self, “Move to Italy.” Yeah, that’s — no, I mean, that’s great. That’s really, that’s really good. And I know when people first get on a treatment, or their doctor recommends a treatment plan. There’s usually a period of like hesitation, like do I really need to take these medicines, or what about the side effects? What was your kind of journey like? Sorry, I’m laughing at the word ‘journey’ because of the day, someone posted on social media, “Stop making everything a journey, sometimes it’s just stuff that’s happening,” but I’m like, I like the word ‘journey’. I don’t know. So, yeah. What was your experience like with the treatment side of things?
Dianna:
Well, I resisted it. I was like, I am not taking methotrexate. Metrotrexate was what they proposed. And I just thought I could deal with this myself. I thought I could — I took homoeopathic medicine; I tried diet. I thought I could control this, you know. And then, I thought, I’m gonna get a second opinion. And so, I went to this other doctor privately. So, that’s the other thing with the health system. If you want to see somebody privately, you can do it and you pay.
Cheryl:
Was the other doctor a rheumatologist?
Dianna:
Yes. He was a rheumatologist. But he was, like had one foot in retirement and one foot in his practice. So, he was very old school and so, anyway, he diagnosed me with rheumatoid arthritis as well, and prescribed methotrexate. So, I took it. I was very, very hesitant and terrified, you know, what kind of results, what kind of side effects I was going to have. But the thing that he did, which now that I look back, I wasn’t very happy with, or I wouldn’t have settled for it back then is that he put me on cortisone for a year. Which the other doctors, you know, at the hospital did not do that. And so, I had, excuse me, I’m just going to —
Cheryl:
No worries. Hydrate, okay.
Dianna:
So, I took the cortisone and I took the methotrexate, and I felt great, you know, while I was on it, because it was because of the cortisone, you know. And the minute that the cortisone tapered off and I stopped the cortisone, I started getting, you know, swelling again, and symptoms came back. And so, he, you know, he wanted to up the methotrexate and all that, and I just changed that. I said, I can’t deal with this guy because he didn’t listen to me, that was the other thing. The first doctor I had, she was younger, and she listened, but I was not prepared for the diagnosis, you know.
Cheryl:
That’s really common. That’s really common. And second opinions are always, are often valuable, especially if they confirm the first opinion, right? Because then you can have that, a little more certainty, although we’re going to talk about uncertainty later as being the default stance of life. But, you know, it’s certainly something that, you know, I have done myself and encourage others to do if you’re unsure about your diagnosis, and they can also confirm, you know, that, yes, methotrexate is the gold standard, you know, for a reason; many patients do really well on it. If you go on social media, you will see tons of, you know, quote-unquote ‘horror stories’ about it. And those, the negative experiences are real. But we have to remember that the, all the people having positive experiences are usually not sharing them, you know. When you go to a restaurant, it’s kind of good. It’s good, not amazing. Maybe you have like one side effect or occasionally, but it’s overall working for your disease. You’re not going to take the time to be like, you know, I’m doing great on methotrexate. It’s like, yeah, I’ve been taking methotrexate for 19 years. I feel like I’m like, people must be thinking at this point because I talk about so often, “She must be getting kickbacks from methotrexate,” but I’ve swear I’m not. I’m just putting — again, pointing out yes, many people have, you know, either fatigue or nausea, but it is very instrumental medicine for most people for controlling the disease long-term or similar. If they can’t tolerate methotrexate, their body just is has too big of a reaction, which is totally fine, you can, you know, there’s other options too.
Dianna:
Yes, eventually, my body did have a reaction to it. In the last couple of years, my liver values went really high. And I had lots of nausea. And so, by that time, I had switched. I’d go back to the team at the hospital, and have a doctor there. And so, he — wait a minute. Now there was another doctor before that at a different local hospital. But I mean, she put me on Plaquenil and methotrexate, and that didn’t do anything. Plaquenil just did not do anything. Because she was trying to lower the methotrexate because of the liver values and stuff.
Cheryl:
And that’s common, exactly common, to add Plaquenil or sulfasalazine. Or, yeah, those are, you know, those are really common steps to be taken. So, but it’s definitely that trial and error period is so rough, I think, to not changing things, or changing things. And you’re like, oh, is this gonna work?
Dianna:
Yeah, yeah. And it’s kind of like now. So, now, I have — I had a really bad year last year and I ended up being on cortisone often, on cortisone for quite a bit. And so, they decided it was time for a biologic for me.
Cheryl:
Bring in the big guns.
Dianna:
Bring it in. Yeah, bring it on. And I’m so happy with it. And they, so I have been on it now for seven months, I think. And it’s wonderful. I mean, I still have methotrexate, but I have a lower dose. And so, I feel I have energy and much less pain. I have — I can close my hand all the way where before I was having trouble doing that.
Cheryl:
That’s wonderful.
Dianna:
Yeah. But at the moment, I’m getting some swelling. And I don’t know if that’s the weather change. I can’t figure it out, you know? But that’s the thing about this disease. Yeah, there’s always something around the corner, you know, but I do realize now, which I didn’t realize at the beginning, is that okay, maybe this biologic works for a year or two. And maybe I’ll have to get another one.
Cheryl:
Yeah. I’m sorry, I can’t remember off the top my head, how long into your diagnosis did you join the Rheum to THRIVE group? Was it pretty soon after or no?
Dianna:
No.
Cheryl:
Oh, okay.
Dianna:
No, it was later. I tried to hook up with an organization here, an association. And it’s like, it’s, you know, you’re just lightyears ahead of them in terms of what you’re doing and the approach and everything. And, I mean, they’re trying, but it’s just not as informative or as patient-driven, you know? So, and plus, it was all in Italian. And I do, obviously, I speak Italian, you know, fairly well. But when you have the emotions and things, I think you’d have to be in your own language. For me, anyway. I just, yeah, I get blocked talking about it in another language.
Cheryl:
That’s really, that’s really fascinating. And I think maybe there is a different style in the — like, that you grew up with. Not that it’s better or worse. It’s just the way of talking about emotions that we grow up with culturally, might be different. And, but yeah, I remember, you know, I think — I wonder if, in the group, I remember talking about many, many people, you know, in our Rheum to THRIVE group had the same exact fears and concerns about methotrexate and biologics. And was it helpful to kind of talk through it with others or realize like — I guess I’m putting words in your mouth — but it seems like it was helpful for people to see like, okay,
Dianna:
Oh, my God. It’s a lifeline, because nobody tells you about the uncertainty of all this. At least here. No one addressed the uncertainty. Or the fear, you know. So, it was a lifeline. In fact, how I found You was, I was searching online. There’s, I’m thinking, America has to have something, you know. And I saw one of your things on Instagram. I think was on Instagram. Yeah. And you were doing one of these videos where you woke up in the morning, and you just were looking at your hand, and you’re opening and closing. I said, “That’s me!” you know, I do that every morning. You know, I’m like, is it okay? Yeah, I mean, not now. I don’t do it now, every morning. But, you know, and that’s why I was like, I have to know this group, this person. Because you were doing the same thing that I was doing, you know.
Cheryl:
We all want to feel seen. Like, and we want to feel like we’re not, you know, the only one that’s experiencing something.
Dianna:
Just have it normalized in some way, you know,
Cheryl:
Yes. Yeah. And I think, unfortunately, for better or worse, a lot of like, medical style education, like educational materials are very dry and sterile and not fun at all, you know. And I’m preparing right now to give a talk at the American College of Rheumatology and Association of Rheumatology professionals conference in November, which is called Convergence. And anyway, the talk was about, you know, the positive impacts of social media, and some of the negatives, you know. How do we harness the positives and then minimize the negatives because of course, there’s negative things on social media, too, because it’s people. People are both wonderful and horrible sometimes. But yeah, seeing like, okay, here’s like, your, you know, here’s what life could look like for you. And it doesn’t have to be this sterile, boring thing. Like, most people want to live like some sort of vibrant existence, you know, and it may not look like me and may not look like dancing and being like super, you know, like, not everyone’s extroverted. And that’s good. We don’t want everyone to be the same, you know. But anyway, sorry. It’s wonderful to hear that because I never know, you know, it’s definitely really Interesting to see which things resonate with people and which don’t.
Dianna:
Yeah, but just getting, I mean, just having that connection, that visual connection, just touched something for me, you know. But, and then when I took the class, just the wealth of information, you know. And then just the whole, and really focusing on the fatigue was helpful, because I just didn’t understand that that was part of it. And I kept thinking, “What is wrong with me? And where’s my energy?” And, you know, ’cause I’m a pretty energetic person. And so, I just felt like, wow, you know?
Cheryl:
Oh, I totally —
Dianna:
It’s awful. And I almost think that’s worse than some of them.
Cheryl:
Oh, yeah.
Dianna:
But it’s easy to say, now I’m not in pain, so.
Cheryl:
No, I think that in, depending on your life context, you know, the life context that you’re in, is constantly changing, right? So, if you are having to work full-time and do something energetically, you know, a challenging job, then the fatigue could definitely easily be, you know, or for many reasons, you could have a baby at home, you know, there’s so many reasons if it should be, you know, worse than the pain. But yeah, I know I’m always curious how people found the group and I think, yeah, like, you learn from the group, but also there is, and I know, you know, from — we forgot to say earlier that, or I forgot to ask about your job field, but you are trained as a counsellor, right.
Dianna:
Right.
Cheryl:
Mental health professional. So, there’s this value in you sharing your story to others, to like an audience that is receptive, you know, and that is happy to hear and hungry to hear your story, too. Or did you find that? Let me know. Be honest. You can be like, “Actually, no, I didn’t hear —”
Dianna:
Oh, no, I definitely did. No, I definitely did. Absolutely. You know, even if I didn’t, wasn’t taking the same medications or whatever, but just hearing — I just felt like I was in a safe place. And I felt like I could be myself. These people’s stories resonated with me, you know?
Cheryl:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. And I did not start it for my own selfish purposes. But I have, I have really gained a lot from hearing other people’s stories, too. It’s, you know, even if I could say logically, like, “It’s normal to feel X-Y-Z.” But it’s another thing if I hear someone else, even on facilitating the group, if I hear someone else say something, I’m like, yeah. Like, my main anxiety triggers are like, the uncertainty, the grey areas, what am I supposed to do? Am I doing enough? Am I doing too much? You know, when I hear someone else struggle with that, it’s such a relief because I’m like, yeah, this isn’t me failing. This is just life, you know?
Dianna:
And also, the whole thing about having, how to explain this condition to other people, you know, that was really helpful, you know. And here, in Italy, you know, eating is a huge thing, and food, and drinking wine, and all that stuff. And so, I had to not drink wine on the methotrexate because my liver was suffering already. It was going up and down. So, I had to, I couldn’t — I mean, they told me I could drink a glass or two a week. And then, it was, I had to stop that, you know, and so that was really hard for me. Because it’s such a social thing here. Like, oh, let’s meet, you know, in the piazza and, you know, have a drink.
Cheryl:
Yeah, I didn’t even think that. I mean, I thought that that’s kind of a lot in the groups of it being difficult to, you know, to not take, to not drink alcohol as much. But I think the cultural aspect is —
Dianna:
The culture. Yeah.
Cheryl:
So, big. Yeah.
Dianna:
Huge. You know, when it’s, you know, and the taste of it, and all that. And here, there’s so much focus on food, and the taste, and how it was cooked, and how it’s prepared, and where these grapes come from. And, you know, it’s just, it’s like a whole conversation, you know, that you — in fact, I’ll never forget this. It’s off track. I’m not sure. But when I came here, I started teaching English. And I was teaching these little children. And the toys that they had in their classroom were all food. There was — I mean, it was crazy.
Cheryl:
That’s so adorable.
Dianna:
Yes. But I mean, they — I mean, like bell peppers, and just stuff, eggplants and things like that, you know? That we probably would not have. We would have had like probably apples, and maybe tomatoes.
Cheryl:
Right. Right, right.
Dianna:
But just to give you an idea how focused, you know, even at a young age, they are on food.
Cheryl:
Yeah. I know, I read that book — this is in French culture — but a really great book called ‘Bringing Up Bébé’, about like French parenting and how they involve the children in the meal preparation from a young age, and, you know, all children like to have some degree of control, you know. They want to be able to, you know, that’s why actually feeding and eating issues are such a big power struggle for a lot of kids. It’s one of the few things you can control fully, even as a child, you know. Someone can’t make you swallow. You can’t make someone swallow, you know, they have to decide to do that. Anyway, but, you know, I think, yeah, I certainly understand that that is a big social thing. And then, you’re like, okay, do I just get something like a non-alcoholic wine? Do they even have that? Or do I just, you know, tell them that I can’t for medical reasons, or like, how — like, did you —?
Dianna:
Yes, I’ve gone through the whole gamut, “I’m sorry. I don’t drink right now,” you know, no explanation. Yeah. And then, I’m not happy with that. Yeah. Or I’ll say, “Oh, I have an autoimmune disease. And I can’t drink right now,” you know, so. But, you know, my friends know, but if you’re in another situation, you know. And then, yeah. So.
Cheryl:
I think that could be its own episode. I’m just, I just wrote that down, like to remember in the future, because that comes up a lot. It’s like, I was diagnosed at — I always say 20. And then, the other day, I actually looked at it, and I realized it was a month before my 20th — I was basically 21. It was my 22nd birthday, I’d gotten it wrong. So, anyway, point being, drinking wasn’t a big part my life anyway, because I always joke, like, I’m like a control freak. So, I didn’t like to drink. I was on the soccer team. But I was always like, the sober one at parties, but still like, hanging out. But for a lot of people, it’s a much bigger, you know, deal; a bigger transition. But for today, I want to make sure I go back to that perpetual, perpetual unsolvable problem of uncertainty. And first of all, again, I really appreciate you being here to share your perspective and your journey with — I said journey again.
Dianna:
That’s okay.
Cheryl:
And experiences with anxiety because I, for a long time, even though I’ve always been really extroverted and not shy about sharing my story of rheumatoid arthritis, it took me a long time to feel comfortable actually publicly talking about anxiety because I felt such a stigma for myself. Because I feel like this is the story that I kept coming up against in my head is, “You’re privileged, your life is fine. Like, why — you should have anxiety. Like, boo-hoo for you, little, you know, little rich white girl from the suburbs,” like, and that’s kind of that harsh self-criticism, right. But I felt like, you know, there’s people who have real problems out there. Why are you —
Dianna:
“Mine doesn’t count.”
Cheryl:
Mine doesn’t count. Yeah. And the only reason — I have said this multiple times in the past — but the only reason I eventually went to therapy was for postpartum anxiety and postpartum depression, because there was so much work, in the United States at least, on destigmatizing postpartum mental health. And I was like, okay. And in my head again, “Well, this is normal. A lot of people feel postpartum mood disorders and like, it’ll just be a short term thing. It’ll be like, three months.” Like, I’m an A student, I’m going to ace therapy, you know? That’s my whole — but anyway, so that, and then I was kind of like, didn’t want to talk about it. And then, I finally like once I opened the Pandora’s box of talking about it, I’m like, ech, like, word vomit all the time. But for you, Dianna, my guest today, to focus on you, what has anxiety looked like for you with regards to coping with rheumatoid arthritis and just whatever you want to say about anxiety?
Dianna:
Yes. Well, anxiety is a powerful thing. Very powerful. And so, apart from having this, I think I’ve always had anxiety. You know, I’ve been prone to anxiety just because of my conditions of growing up. And my father was a Korean war veteran suffering from PTSD, and so — and so, I just think I had fear transmitted to me. Not just from him, but from the family and, you know, just so, I think it was at an unconscious level, you know, I think it’s part of me, you know, just transmitted. So — no, I lost track. Anxiety. Okay, so that is part of my life.
Cheryl:
Yeah, no, it’s not — it wasn’t like you were like, no worries, no worries — diagnosis, RA — suddenly worries. Like, you had worries before.
Dianna:
No, no. No, I’m one of these people who worry, you know, and one of these people who think about things a lot, you know, before making a decision. And that’s just my personality, you know.
Cheryl:
Well, we have to keep worrying or else because no one else is worrying. So, we have to be the ones, right?
Dianna:
Right, yes. And I’m a good worrier, you know? So, I think that’s just part of my personality. But with something like… So, uncertainty, and not being able to control things is a source of, you know, worry. And it triggers things, you know. So, this rheumatoid just gives you like a huge opportunity to obsess, you know, to worry. And so, it was like, oh, my God, you know, here, I have multiple opportunities and things to worry about. So, you just pick one and you go on a track with it. And obsess is what how I — and, of course, the hand was the thing for me, you know. So, yeah, I’m not sure I’m answering your question.
Cheryl:
No, you are. No, no, I’m just giving — I tend to jump in too quick. So, I’m just giving, trying to give a pause. But it’s not —
Dianna:
Yeah, so.
Cheryl:
So, you, you would kind of like — one thing that my therapist pointed out to me is that when I would get into these kind of rumination states, or obsessing, that I was always seeking certainty, like seeking the answers, or trying to make this gigantic chart in my head of like an if/then. Like, if this, then this. If the best-case scenario, then this; if worst-case scenario, then this. And it’s this, it’s not a terrible thing. Or he would say like, it’s not a bad thing in general to have a plan A and a plan B. But to obsessively — to do it to the degree of like, so many details in so many possible conditions, with this idea that this if/then and this worrying is protecting you, is wrong. Because like, and like I tell people in the group, you know, what did you worry about on March 1st, 2020? If you listed all your worries, unless you were really watching the news — which I have, actually. My husband, I kind of worried, because he works in China, or traditionally, he’d go to China for work like two to three times a year, and he hasn’t gone since the pandemic. But so he was on top of it, maybe starting in like January. But point being, most people on March 1st, 2020, were not like, on top of their worry list was not like, a worldwide pandemic.
Dianna:
You know, there are real things to worry about. But, you know, I can just get my — and if I am worried about something, then the impulse is okay, I’ve got to go to the internet. I’ve got to find out all the information. It was like, you’re gonna have to plan B. But, you know, that’s where I go with it. And my therapist said to me recently, for anxious people, everything’s like a heart attack. You know, it’s like you’ve got, “Oh, my —,” it’s eminent, you know, you have to figure it out now, before something bad happens, you know.
Cheryl:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I’ve asked myself sometimes if I’m doing kind of more of a Cognitive Behavior Therapy. I’m like, where’s the fire? Like, this is not like, if I’m five minutes late to drop my child off at class. Small problems, small potatoes, you know. Sometimes if you’re really, if you’re really — what’s the trigger, you know. If you’re really having high anxiety, you can’t think really very rationally in that moment. But when you’re starting to escalate or starting to get in that irritability zone, then that can kind of help talk you down, to be like, huh, this is like, what are the actual — like, is this going to be a problem for me in two years, five years, you know. Like, arthritis is. It is going to be a perpetual problem or issue in your life; it will be to a different degree, right. If you’re in remission, then it won’t be a huge problem. But it will be something you have to deal with unless there’s a cure, you know. If there’s a cure, great. But then just add another, just substitute something else. Yeah. Because that’s the thing is I think a lot of people think, “Oh, if I just got rheumatoid arthritis figure it out, then my life would be perfect again,” but it never was perfect. Sorry. That’s why I try.
Dianna:
But I mean, and there is no — this RA is what it is. And, you know, in a way, it’s kind of like, the flip side of it is a gift for, you know, knowing that you can’t solve it, you know. You can’t. That’s kind of how I look at it. I can only do the best I can. The other thing is, I think living here in this country, culturally, they just take things in stride, you know. They kind of just trust the process of life, you know.
Cheryl:
I didn’t know that. That’s — see, I really wanna move there now.
Dianna:
I mean, well, I mean, not everyone is like that. But, you know, people like, you know, I’m like, oh, my gosh, you know, I’ve got to be on time. And I’ve got to do this, and that. And then, you know, people are always late here, you know, 90% of the time people are late, you know. And it’s not the end of the world.
Cheryl:
Right, right. Right. Right.
Dianna:
You know, or I can’t solve a problem, you know. My husband will say, “Don’t worry, it’ll work itself out.”
Cheryl:
Is he Italian?
Dianna:
Yes, he’s Italian.
Cheryl:
Good influence then. Yeah.
Dianna:
Yeah. It’s like, but they have — yeah, everything will just work out. And it usually does, you know. It usually does.
Cheryl:
Well, you kind of mentioned, you said earlier, it’s a gift knowing that you can’t solve it. Can you explain to people who are like, who are still in the solving state of mind? Like, why is it a gift that rheumatoid arthritis or health issues are to some degree unsolvable?
Dianna:
Well, I mean, it’s helpful for me in terms of my struggle with anxiety. Because it’s kinda like, okay. The only thing for sure about this is that it’s uncertain. You know, yes, there are certain things, certain treatments, and all that kind of stuff, but it’s like, I’m never gonna know what’s around the corner with it. I’m never gonna know like, in the morning, am I gonna wake up and my knees are gonna hurt? It’s kind of like, okay, you know, this will — it helps me to just go with the flow.
Cheryl:
Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah. Well, and I think —
Dianna:
And it’s not — it’s a struggle sometimes, for sure.
Cheryl:
Yeah, I think the way I sometimes try to like, quantify it is, let’s say I have like 100 energy units, right. And if I’m spending 80 of those trying to solve an unsolvable problem, that I could be maybe saying — or a problem that’s ultimately unsolvable, maybe partially solvable in the moment — and when I say solvable, I just mean like, let’s say I’m in pain. Okay, maybe I could put a cold pack on; maybe I could up my medicine that day. But there’s some degree to which that pain may be unsolvable, it may persist to a certain degree. So, what if I took those 80 and I only put 20 towards solving the problem. And then, I have 60 more units of energy to put towards what’s in the now, what’s my actual life. Because I think anxiety makes you want to live in this future that you’re trying to control with this illusion that if I just think of everything and I research everything, then I’ll be able to live. I’m not going to live in the moment now. I’m going to live in the moment in the future after I figure out all these problems.
Dianna:
Right, and then it’s gone.
Cheryl:
Then your whole life is spent waiting for this future.
Dianna:
Yeah. Or even sometimes anxiety just can paralyze me from taking action.
Cheryl:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That’s true, too. Yeah.
Dianna:
So, that, you know, the opposite, the other side of the spinning, you know, trying to figure out the other side is, I’m just like, “Uh-oh,” you know, now what do I do? And I just — I can’t act, you know.
Cheryl:
Mm-hmm. Well, speaking of ACT, that is the acronym of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.
Dianna:
Yes. Yeah, that —
Cheryl:
Yeah. I often say the word acceptance gets a bad reputation in pain management. Understandably, most people, the last thing they want to do is think about accepting pain, accepting fatigue, accepting uncertainty. But what does acceptance mean to you? Or has, you know, I mean, we’ve obviously already kind of already talked about it, but not with necessarily the word ‘acceptance’ as much.
Dianna:
Hmm. Well, maybe I can just give you this sort of example.
Cheryl:
Yeah.
Dianna:
When I, as I said, when I first got the diagnosis, and I thought about how I’d worked so hard, with my not having a hand. And so, I saw myself as that little girl, the little girl, and I called myself ‘The little girl with the hook’, you know, because at that time, the prosthesis I had was a hook. And so, I would talk to her. And so, the way I reached the acceptance was many crying conversations. And I just said to her, “There are three of us now. And the other one is the rheumatoid, is part of our lives now.” And so, that’s it. I don’t know if that answers your question.
Cheryl:
It does. Like, because you’re not fighting it, you’re allowing.
Dianna:
Yes.
Cheryl:
And that word ‘allowing’ is also one that my therapist taught me and I learned more about in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. But it’s like, this is here. What if I, again, what if I don’t fight it? What if it’s — I allow it to be here? And then, I proceed to live my life with it rather than fighting it?
Dianna:
Yes. And then, to realize that I did have the strength — I do have the strength, you know. Because she’s there with me. And, you know, we did it already. And so, yeah.
Cheryl:
That’s why I do think having some past experience with either a medical issue or a you know, developmental difference or limb difference like you have, you have some built up self-efficacy in the area of like, I can cope with something that a lot of people would think on the surface, “I could never deal with, I could never cope. How could I ever deal with that,” what you have to, you know, cope with and adapt to. You already have kind of some built up self-efficacy. But at the same time, there is something different about a systemic condition that so fluctuates. It’s not like you wake up — it’d be like you wake up one day, you have one finger on your left hand. The other day, you have three fingers. The other day, you have five. And then, you have zero. And then you’re like, you do different things to try to make it better. You do the diet, you do the medicine, but it still seems to sometimes randomly, you know —
Dianna:
Yeah, you couldn’t master it, you know, like totally.
Cheryl:
Yeah. Sorry, that’s the weirdest analogy.
Dianna:
No, no, I get it, you know, because I could master the hook. You know, I could do that.
Cheryl:
Right. Yeah, or you’re like, this is the technique. This is how I wash my hair. And this is how I write, this is how I, you know, cook my food. And you don’t need to think of a new strategy each day. But with a — I really liked this phrase, ‘dynamic disability’, people started using recently.
Dianna:
Oh, that’s interesting.
Cheryl
Yeah, dynamic disability. I don’t — I’ll give credit if I can find it, to whomever coined that. But yeah, the idea of it’s this thing of, you know, you might need — in the USA, we have these, you know, handicap — they used to be called ‘handicapped cards’ or ‘disability parking cards’ that allow you to put it on your car, and then you can park in the accessible parking spot. And, you know, there used to be like, this hard line. Like, you either need it all the time, or you don’t ever need it. And now, there’s a recognition that like people have dynamic disabilities. They might need to have the card as a tool for the 5 to 10 days on a month they’re having a really high pain or fatigue day and they can’t get easily from the parking spot to the store. But the other days, they don’t need it, you know. And our society doesn’t really have a good paradigm for those grey areas.
Dianna:
No. Yeah, it’s black and white. Yeah.
Cheryl:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, this is, I love talking about this. Is there any other coping tools? You did mention that therapy, that you have a therapist, which I’m always trying to, you know, encourage people, if you can get therapy.
Dianna:
Oh, coping tools for the anxiety?
Cheryl:
Yeah, yeah.
Dianna:
Let’s see. Well, I mean, that whole ACT therapy concept has been, was really helpful. And the thing I love the most from that is, you know, when things start going, I just say, “Well, that’s not a useful thought, is it?” You know, it’s not useful. This is not a useful thought. That kind of stops me in my tracks, you know. Because I like to be pragmatic.
Cheryl:
Yeah, that’s great.
Dianna:
And so, that really, “Oh, you know, this isn’t useful. Why am I wasting my time on it?” you know, that I like that. I’m finding that exercise can help, you know, like changing the location of what, where I am and maybe start doing something physical. And then, I have these — I don’t want to say homeopathic, but these drops that I take that they’re based on this plant. It’s not a — it’s not a pharm — what’s the word. It’s not a drug.
Cheryl:
Is it essential — is it essential oil?
Dianna:
No, it’s not an oil. It comes from a plant.
Cheryl:
Wow. Cool.
Dianna:
And then, the plant in Italian, the name of the plant is Tilia. I can look it up later and tell you the translation. But it comes from a plant, and it’s to help calm you, you know. And so, if I’m really out there, I take that, you know, so. And you just put the drops in water, you know.
Cheryl:
That’s great. What about, — oh, sorry. Keep going.
Dianna:
I was just gonna say, and I like it. Because it’s something that I control, which I prefer, you know.
Cheryl:
Right. Yeah, definitely. Rheumatoid arthritis poses a challenge to a lot — a mental challenge — to a lot of people who are really committed to an all-natural, you know, stance. I really empathize with that. But again, this is a good example. It doesn’t have to be either/or. You’re doing natural things alongside medicine. Why not?
Dianna:
Exactly. Because I don’t think all-natural worked for me. I tried that.
Cheryl:
No. And it is, that’s the norm, the norm for the majority of people with rheumatoid arthritis, is that they’re going to need some Western medication. And there’s nothing wrong with that.
Dianna:
And it was so disappointing, you know, because I really believed that it would work, you know, and it was very disappointing.
Cheryl:
Yeah, you’re definitely not alone in that. And then, I know that one of your — I don’t if you want to call it like, a hobby or something that you really, really love, is writing. Do you write — does writing ever help you? Like, I like journaling sometimes, like my feelings, that can help a lot with anxiety.
Dianna:
I’m always journaling. I’ve always journaled my whole life, you know. I love writing. So, yes, writing definitely helps. It can be calming, you know, it can also be a place to get out, you know, stronger emotions. And then, I’ve tried to do some writing about the rheumatoid and how it’s affected me, my body, and allows me to kind of grieve the parts of me that I’ve lost, you know. Not really parts of me, but things in my life. And, you know, I think, grieve the loss because, you know, I feel like, I’m mean, I’m the same person, but I’m different. You know, I’ve got to think about different things every day. So, it helps me with that.
Cheryl:
That’s great. Do you — let’s see. Sorry, I’m getting back on my schedule here. My schedule of questions. No, no, I just want to make sure — no, we’re perfect on time. But I do have some rapid fire questions that I just started this quote-unquote ‘rapid fire section’, but like, each question could take a long time too. But is there kind of a best advice you like to give newly diagnosed patients or just a word of wisdom or encouragement for somebody who might be in that state that you were at where you just got diagnosed, and you’re like, oh, my gosh, what’s gonna — you know. Agh, for lack of a better word.
Dianna:
Well, the first thing I would do is to encourage talking to other people who have it and to get information, and I would recommend your course.
Cheryl:
Oh, thank you.
Dianna:
I absolutely would. I mean, it was a lifeline for me. And I would just want them to know that I was there if they needed somebody to talk to and to trust the process.
Cheryl:
I’m going to try to be more, more trusting. I definitely — I think I’ve learned I’m not a very naturally trusting person, or in terms of like trusting things will work out. So, I think that’s really important.
Dianna:
Yeah, I think so, you know. I mean, because it feels very dark, you know, when you first get it like, oh, no. And I don’t know if — I don’t know if I could have heard that when I first got diagnosed.
Cheryl:
Yeah, but doesn’t hurt to say it just in case that kind of lodges itself somewhere in the back of the person’s mind. And then, do you have a favorite arthritis gadget or tool in your rheumatoid arthritis toolbox?
Dianna:
Yes. And it’s the compression glove. I love my compression gloves. I just love it. In fact, I need to get a new one and I’m trying to decide which one to get.
Cheryl:
There are so many. I’m a collector.
Dianna:
Yeah, I’m thinking like, I’d like to get that one from the lady in England. What’s her name…
Cheryl:
Grace & Abel, Sarah. And this is the second time she’s come up this week. Yeah.
Dianna:
I’m thinking that one might be. Or the next time I go home, I’m gonna do like an Amazon run and get something at home.
Cheryl:
Yeah. Yeah, that’s great. Yeah. Sarah has some great things going on with Grace & Able beyond even the compression gloves. So, I live nearby, so I was able to see some of the stuff behind the scenes, but yeah, I know.
Dianna:
So, she’s in America. Not in England.
Cheryl:
Yeah. She’s from England, but she lives here now.
Dianna:
Oh, okay. I thought she lived in the UK. So, if I order them, then they’re coming from the United States.
Cheryl:
Yeah. Yeah. As far as I know. They might, she might have an office in England. We’ll see. I don’t know. I don’t know, actually. I’ve got to ask her. And then, do you have a favorite — like, this is a huge question, but a book or a movie or TV show you’ve been into lately,
Dianna:
Lately?
Cheryl:
Yeah. Or actually, yeah, what — do you have a favorite book, or movie, TV show, also?
Dianna:
Oh, gosh, that’s hard. I think right now, lately, well, I always love historical fiction and historical dramas. And so, recently on Netflix, I just watched — unfortunately it’s only the first season — it’s called The Empress. And it’s about this Empress in Austria. And her name is Sisi. But the reason I like her story is because she comes to live in Italy. And in this castle that’s not — it’s like an hour or so from our house. And so, I’ve been to the castle and so it’s just kind of, yeah, I love that kind of stuff, you know, when you can connect to place and time from a film, you know, from history.
Cheryl:
Yeah. Oh, my gosh, yeah. I love it. And then, do you have a favorite mantra or inspirational saying?
Dianna:
Yes, and it’s in Italian. But I can tell you the translated, and it’s pretty much along the theme of what I’ve been saying. With the mantra is, “Si convinta tutto,” which means that everything works out. There’s a solution for everything. And, yeah, my husband is always telling me that, you know, when I get into these worry things, “Si convinta tutto.”
Cheryl:
Oh, that’s so sweet. And then, other than The Empress, what is something in general that’s bringing you joy right now?
Dianna:
Bringing me joy. Well, the fall weather. I mean, we had such a horrible summer of heat and humidity. And then, one of my essays got published.
Cheryl:
Oh! Is it like publicly? Like, is it something people could look up if we wanted to?
Dianna:
It’s — unfortunately, I have three things published and two of them are online. But this one, this recent one was in a print journal, literary journal, so you’d have to buy the journal.
Cheryl:
Oh, okay. Oh, that’s exciting. I’ll put a link to it. I’m putting a little note to myself to get links, in case.
Dianna:
Okay. Yeah, I could give you the other stuff. But that’s very exciting. And so, my book is finished. I’m trying to now work on finding agents and things.
Cheryl:
That’s so exciting.
Dianna:
Yes. It’s exciting. Yeah, it’s exciting, but it’s a lot of work to get these agents, so.
Cheryl:
Yeah. Most exciting things, unfortunately, are a lot of work, aren’t they? And then, last one — again, this could be a whole episode. But what does it mean to you to live a good life or thrive with rheumatoid arthritis?
Dianna:
What does it mean to me to live — I think, for me, it’s to accept the new me. Yeah.
Cheryl:
I resonate with that. I resonate with that completely. And I think it’s the opposite of what a lot of people think. Oh, there’s this narrative and, you know, in the US, with a lot of health conditions, “You just need to conquer it. You need to beat it. You need to conquer it. It’s you against it.”
Dianna:
I don’t think so.
Cheryl:
Yeah.
Dianna:
I think that so much, it takes so much energy to fight and conquer, you know? You can, in my opinion, if you just relax into it. I mean, it’s hard. It’s not easy, you know. But it’s, I think it’s more realistic.
Cheryl:
Yeah. I mean, yeah, it’s definitely something that was, it’s been a paradox to me, because I — it seems like, again, it’s very hard to disentangle the idea of acceptance from the idea of giving up. I don’t want to quit. I’m not a quitter.
Dianna:
Yeah, I’m not a quitter, either.
Cheryl:
Yeah. But it’s not quitting to look in the face, the reality of life. And that’s what’s — if you do delve in, if anyone listening delves into Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, the deeper roots of it are actually in like philosophy, of like the philosophy of what is knowable. What is knowable? The future is never actually knowable. We can make a good prediction. But it’s unknowable. So, the present, and being able to look the present in the face and say, this is, you know, for lack of further data, this is what it is.
Dianna:
Yeah. And also, to realize it’s not easy, you know, to accept. It’s not just like, “Okay, I’m accepting it,” and but every day, it’s an everyday thing. You know, it’s not —
Cheryl:
Yeah, that’s so true. It’s an everyday battle. Yeah. Oh, I used that battle analogy, though. No, I shouldn’t use that — I try not to use battle. Yeah, whatever works. That’s another thing I like about ACT.
Dianna:
No, that’s okay.
Cheryl:
Yeah. No, it’s true. It seems like acceptance would be giving up and it’d be the easy way out, but it’s actually much harder.
Dianna:
I think so. Yeah.
Cheryl:
Yeah. But that’s our opinion. If something else works for you —
Dianna:
That’s right. Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. It is.
Cheryl:
Because ACT is all about what’s workable, right?
Dianna:
It’s whatever works, you know? Whatever works.
Cheryl:
Is there anything else you wanted to share with the audience before we wrap up? I like how the sun shines behind you, I keep meaning to say that. If you’re watching — you have to watch the YouTube video. If you’re if you’re just listening, I have put these interviews on YouTube too. So, yeah, is that a collection?
Dianna:
Everywhere I go, I get a sun. And sometimes people, people knowing do this. And so, they give me a gift too. Like, my mother has given me suns from different places.
Cheryl:
Oh, that’s amazing. They’re beautiful.
Dianna:
Thank you. Thank you. One thing, and I don’t know if this is off track.
Cheryl:
No, everything’s on track in my world.
Dianna:
One of the things that kicked in for me when I was going to see the doctors was it brought me back to when I was a little girl and getting fitted for my prosthesis and all that kind of stuff. And my interaction with doctors, I had to be the perfect patient. And I had to be — I could do everything that they wanted and I, you know, I was happy and all this kind of stuff. And so, when I found myself falling into that trap with these rheumatologists, because I had to prove to them you know that, “Oh, it doesn’t matter. I can tie my shoes even though my fingers are killing me.” And, you know, and I don’t know where that fits into our conversation. But I don’t know if there’s people who have behaviors that they have in front of the medical figure, you know.
Cheryl:
You know, that resonates a hundred percent. And in fact, like, I would just say that it doesn’t work on your favor to minimize what you’re experiencing to your doctor. And my doctor had to actually call me out on that. She was like, “I need you to tell me straight,” like, because she’s like, “I have to know, really, if you are having pain and inflammation right now, not just, ‘Oh, it’s fine, it’s fine.’ Because we need to make —” and she actually had to explain to me because I thought, well, it’s, I can cope with this amount of pain, but she’s like, “But the fact that you’re in pain means that the inflammation is not under control. And that could be causing systemic damage. And so, we need to, like put this fire out more aggressively,” like, and I didn’t, yeah, I didn’t realize that, right. I just thought I was trying to be a good — I mean, exactly. A good patient, a good girl, you know, follow the rules, don’t make a stink, you know. I’m sure other people will relate to that.
Dianna:
Like, I have this little pain going on in this finger. And then, I’ve had it for quite a while and I’m like, well, does that count? You know, do I — am I supposed to bring that up? Or, you know, just maybe I just need to live with this, because I’m so happy that everything else is working. And so, I don’t know.
Cheryl:
Yeah, it’s always, I think, when in doubt, at least communicate to your medical team, is kind of a rule of thumb that I do, because it’s like, sometimes there’s been things I didn’t even realize were potentially a big deal, or things I thought were a big deal that actually weren’t, you know. So, when in doubt, yeah, when in doubt, share it. Share it with the with the team, and they can tell you whether it’s a big deal or not.
Dianna:
Okay. That’s good advice. Yeah.
Cheryl:
Yeah. It’s not medical advice, though. No, I’m just joking.
Dianna:
Sorry. Sorry.
Cheryl:
No, no, I’m joking. Basically, the word ‘advice’ is very loaded. I was because I was covering that in my talk. On social media, you have to be as a licensed health provider, you know, and you have to be really careful. It’s funny actually, because the paradigm of like counsellors and counselling, there are a lot of great counsellors and psychologists online that are providing really meaningful and valuable content. And no one is like, confused, like, if I watch an influential, you know, Instagram or, you know, reel or video from somebody who’s a therapist, I’m not confused that like, they’re my therapist. They’re not — I know. But it’s funny, because when it comes to other health providers giving advice, or giving tips, or pointers, or education online, there is this huge concern with like, is this coming across as like, personal medical advice? Anyway, sorry. That’s just another —
Dianna:
Yeah. I think you have to be careful. I do think, because you don’t really know how the other how people are receiving it.
Cheryl:
Mm-hmm. That’s true. That’s really true. Yeah, it’s kind of scary. I think the good outweighs the bad for me being like a, you know, person sharing a lot online. But yeah, certainly, I want to consider all possible negative connotations. I would never want someone to be like, “Well, Cheryl said this, so.”
Dianna:
Yeah, no. I mean, that’s why people do the disclaimers, right?
Cheryl:
Yes, yes. And by the way, this episode, like all the episodes, does have medical disclaimer. But oh, speaking of online world, I’m gonna put a link to your Instagram in the show notes. But if you just want to say it out loud in case anyone’s like on Instagram as we speak, where can they find you?
Dianna:
Oh, my God. I’m on Instagram, but I don’t know what my handle is.
Cheryl:
Oh, let me let me look it up because I know I’m following you. So, it’s D-I-C —
Dianna:
Okay, so it’s D-I-, and then my surname, which is Cannicco, C-A-N-N-I-C-C-O.
Cheryl:
Yep. That’s your, yeah, that’s you on Instagram. So, if people want to follow you, follow up, or just say thank you for this episode. Yeah. I’m grateful again, you know, sharing your story, even if you’re excited about it, like I usually am excited, it’s also emotional to share your story and, you know, what you’ve been through emotionally and physically. So, thank you. Thank you for sharing today.
Dianna:
Thank you. I really feel privileged to be able to be part of the arthritis world, your podcast.
Cheryl:
No, thank you. No, it’s my pleasure. The pleasure is all mine. Thank you. And have a good rest of your day, bye-bye for now.
Dianna:
Okay. Bye.
