What’s so Funny about Rheumatoid Arthritis? Insights from Comedian Jessica Michelle

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Summary:

On episode 140 of The Arthritis Life Podcast, comedian Jessica Michelle shares what it was like to be diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis in her mid 20s after years of unexplained pain. She also shares how her career as a comedian has led to some unexpected connections with the chronic illness community, and how humor has served as a coping mechanism for her.

Cheryl and Jessica share the best tools in their daily disease management toolboxes, also discuss stress management tips, and reflect on the importance of community support. Most importantly, they remind you that you can still live a full life despite the ups and downs from RA, and even have fun along the way! 

Episode at a glance:

• Jessica’s Rheumatoid Arthritis Story:How Jessica got diagnosed and what her treatment journey has been like
• Exploring different treatment options: Jessica shares the ups and downs of trying different diets and lifestyle methods to manage RA, along with medications
• Humor as a Coping Mechanism: Jessica shares how she started improv and stand up comedy, and how humor helped her cope with rheumatoid arthritis. She also explores what it was like to have a joke about rheumatoid arthritis go viral on social media.
• Ways to Manage Stress: Strategies for managing stress, maintaining a positive mindset, and connecting with others who understand life with RA.

Medical disclaimer: 

All content found on Arthritis Life public channels was created for generalized informational purposes only. The content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

Episode Sponsors

Rheum to THRIVE, an online course and support program Cheryl created to help people with rheumatic disease go from overwhelmed, confused and alone to confident, supported and connected. See all the details and join the program or waitlist now! 

Speaker Bios:

Jessica Michelle Singleton

I’m a standup comedian who was diagnosed with Rheumatoid Arthritis over 10 years ago and as of very recently it was declared inactive! WOOHOO! I have been lucky with the progression/prognosis of my disease thus far and I am very grateful for that. I love connecting with other RA ladies who get it and I have used humor to cope with this as well as almost every hard thing in my life. Sometimes, you just have to laugh at the hell of it all.

Cheryl Crow

Cheryl is an occupational therapist who has lived with rheumatoid arthritis for nineteen years. Her life passion is helping others with rheumatoid arthritis figure out how to live a full life despite arthritis, by developing tools to navigate physical, emotional and social challenges. She formed the educational company Arthritis Life in 2019 after seeing a huge need for more engaging, accessible, and (dare I say) FUN patient education and self-management resources.

Episode links:

• Links to things mentioned in episode or additional listening
  • 2022 ACR guidelines for integrative RA 
  • UCSF – nutrition recommendations for people with rheumatic diseases
  • Likelihood of remission in juvenile arthritis 
  • Mel Robbins Podcast
  • Perfectionist’s Guide to Losing Control 
  • Link – to her joke that went viral
• Speaker links
  • Jmscomedy.com  
  • Ignorance is Blessed – podcast 
  • Two filthy nerds – Smutty Podcast  
  • @JMScomedy on Instagram
  • @JMSComedy on Facebook
  • @JMSComedy on Twitter
  • @JMSComedy Tiktok
• Cheryl’s Arthritis Life Pages:

• Arthritis Life website 
• Youtube channel
• Instagram @arthritis_life_cheryl 
• TikTok @arthritislife
• Arthritis Life Facebook Page
• Cheryl on Twitter: @realcc 
• Arthritis Life Podcast Facebook Group

Full Episode Transcript:

Cheryl:  00:00

I am so excited today to have a social media friend, her name is Jessica Michelle Singleton, to share her story on the arthritis life podcast. Welcome. 

Jessica:  00:12

Thank you. I’m so excited to be here, and so excited to get to, like, chat with you in real life instead of just in the comments. 

Cheryl:  00:17

It’s so surreal. I mean, at first, I’m gonna just give away the lead here or whatever that I saw you on, just a reel popped up. And I was, like, a comedian, you, talking about rheumatoid arthritis? I was like, oh, my gosh, there is someone out there, like, you know, connecting on humor, you know. And I think that’s just so, it’s so important to have that representation. But that’s, that’s anyway, first of all, I’ll just let you introduce yourself. Like, where do you live and what is your relationship to arthritis?

Jessica:  00:46

Well, I live in LA now, where I am a standing up comedian, excuse me, and I have arthritis. I was diagnosed, gosh, like over, like, 10 years ago, maybe 12 years ago now. And so, yeah, that I had a joke I did on a Don’t Tell comedy set that kind of blew up. And I got a lot of followers and messages from other people with rheumatoid arthritis. I started getting more women with arthritis coming to my shows. And it was, it was cool getting to talk to people who have had similar experiences, because it does feel like odd talking about it sometimes with people.

Cheryl:  01:26

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there’s such a barrier to understanding it, because if they hear the words rheumatoid arthritis, they might — or just arthritis — they might think of, like, osteoarthritis. Or, who’s this young, like, why is this young person talking about arthritis, like.

Jessica:  01:41

Yeah, that’s why I say that too, that it’s like, everyone’s like, “Oh yeah, my grandma’s back hurts when, when it rains,” but it’s having to explain. It is like, no, it’s a different kind. But okay, yeah. So, you know, I’ve gone through the general roller coaster. I’ve been, I think I like to — I’ve been really lucky with mine. It’s been slow progressing, and then as of late, which I guess maybe I’m like, jumping the gun, but I got blood work and stuff done a couple months ago, and mine right now is inactive. So, that’s been really cool. I feel very lucky.

Cheryl:  02:20

Yeah, no, that’s the dream, right? Is to get people in, everyone into either remission or low disease activity. And, yeah, that — so, let’s that, that’s the ending. Let’s start at the beginning. How did you get there? And first of all, how did you get your diagnosis? Because this is always like a saga, or often a saga.

Jessica:  02:39

Well, what was so funny about my diagnosis is I, um, I started having joint pain in high school, and I lived in Alaska. That’s where I went to high school. I lived in Alaska, and it was, it was specifically in the winter, which it sounds, it almost seems stupid to say specifically, because the winter’s so long. But I also played a ton of sports, and I have a mom who I love dearly. We don’t always connect on things. And I don’t know if this is generational, or if it’s my mom specifically, or honestly, it’s a good — I think poverty, we can’t afford to always go to the doctor tactic is that anytime I was — I’m also very neurotic — but anytime I was like, something’s wrong, my mom was just like, “You’re a hypochondriac, you’re fine.” 

So, I told her about my joints hurting, and she’s like, “You play sports, you’re fine.” So, I spent years being like, I play sports, and I guess I hurt. And then it wasn’t until, maybe until I was, like, 25 years old. I went to a walk-in clinic because I had terrible insurance, and I had had, and as I say this, I’m like, maybe I’m like, a little bit of a hypochondriac, but I’d had a lymph node in my armpit that was swollen for a couple days, and it just hurt. And that ended up being, I just had a cold that was being processed. But while I was in there, I offhandedly was, like, “Also, sometimes my joints hurt.”

Cheryl:  04:12

Yeah, yeah.

Jessica:  04:14

And the doctor in there, like, bless this person, was like, “What do you mean? Like, how bad, where?” And I was kind of like, kind of all over, really, like, in my wrists and elbows a lot. And I said, “I don’t know if they hurt any more than any other person my age.” And the doctor looked at my chart and was like, “You’re 25?” And I was like, yeah. And they’re like, “People your age don’t have joint pain.” And honest to God, until that point, I thought everyone was kind of just walking around in pain and sucking it up. 

Cheryl:  04:49

No, that’s all you knew. That’s all you know, yeah.

Jessica:  04:53

Then I was like, is this normal? And so, they were like, we’ll do, you know, some blood tests. And I get the blood test back, and all of my like numbers were through the roof. So, they’re like, “You need to see a rheumatologist right away.” And that’s kind of how the ball started rolling. And I went from there to rheumatologist, got a diagnosis, immediately wanted a second opinion, because it’s like, oh, clarity, but also denial. Are we sure? And I got my diagnosis, and they were like, “Okay, so we’re gonna put you on methotrexate.” And I was like —? Because I didn’t know anything, I’d done no research. And I was like, methotrexate, isn’t that —? That’s pretty, pretty intense, right? I’m not even really taking ibuprofen for this. I’ve just kind of been buckling down.

Cheryl:  05:50

Yeah,

Jessica:  05:52

And at that point I just really, I went back and I rearranged my budget, and was like, how can I, how can I penny pinch elsewhere and get myself on slightly better insurance. Because I was like, let me, at least, seems like this is going to be an ongoing thing, so let me try to mitigate whatever little bit of cost I can by getting ahead of that. Which am I? Are we ever? Who knows?

Cheryl:  06:18

No, but that’s, I mean, I just think it’s, I want to quickly just acknowledge that a lot of times when people think, what’s it like to be a young person. So, I was diagnosed at 21 with arthritis, with inflammatory autoimmune arthritis. They’ll think about the physical symptoms. But a lot of the burden of the disease, or the stress around the disease, is, is not just in the symptoms, it’s the what you’re talking about. How am I going to afford these medications? How do I, you know, in my job in the United States, our jobs are tied to the insurance. 

So, I remember, I was working for a nonprofit that didn’t have that good of an insurance, and so I but I was working there, I started working there part-time, and then worked at a government job 20-hours a week so I could have insurance like, this is like, perfect, you know. What were you doing professionally? Were you in the comedian industry? What were you doing?

Jessica:  07:06

I had just, I think, less than a year before, left my full-time job, which was at a nonprofit. So, the insurance was fairly better than what I was on. But, you know, it’s like time to take the leap. And then, I was like, I’ve left, and the net is made of barbed wire. What’s happening? But I somehow made that work, and ended up going — I just was, you know, the doctor, rheumatologist I saw initially might have been fine. It was just sort of let me get someone I’m more comfortable with and that I can like talk to. And I ended up finding a woman who I was glad, because I don’t know, I think it’s easier to talk to talk to women. Women understand women’s bodies more. And there are, you read a lot about how we get dismissed a lot.

Cheryl:  08:09

Well, I was gonna say, you were it sounds like raised to call yourself a hypochondriac, and that’s a really, to me, I feel like that should be a banned word, like, because I just think that, like, we shouldn’t be ashamed or accused of having a disorder for just, like, wanting to — I get that there is such a thing as, like, an OCD, like, health anxiety that needs to be treated, right? But then, yes, like, in a way, I mean, maybe you call yourself a hypochondriac, but you actually could have been that whole time, like your body is out of whack, like.

Jessica:  08:38

yeah, it’s like, almost like I was gaslighting myself. I’m probably overreacting. And the whole time it’s like, oh, there was something really wrong. And I was going, you’re being a baby. And by the way, it does you no, it’s a disservice, and I’m saying this from experience, to go into the doctor and go, “You know, sometimes a little bit of a hypochondriac,” because they immediately go, okay, so whatever you say is a lie, like not a lie, but it’s like she’s probably overreacting. And it’s like you have to be very clear and very specific, because I don’t know, I don’t know how, it’s like the medical industry in America is terrible in so many ways. You know, I know there’s places where I’m sure it’s so worse, but so much worse, excuse me, but the way they’ll just overbook appointments where it’s like, yeah, they want to just get you in and out and stuff.

Cheryl:  09:34

I mean, I think it’s yeah, it’s complex. I think my experience for rheumatoid, I always feel defensive for rheumatologists, because I do feel like, I mean, there are definitely some bad ones out there, but, like, the majority of rheumatologists actually really want to spend more time with their patients. And a lot of times it’s like they are constrained by some of the, like, systemic things like pressures or whatnot. But, yeah. But point being, like finding a good fit, like, lesson from this, like many different lessons already. One is, don’t call yourself a hypochondriac, like, trust your body, you know, unless you clinically, like, there is, I just think it’s, I think that incidence of hypochondria and/or health anxiety that’s like a clinical, like, needs a therapist level is so much lower than it actually seems. So, it’s like, trust yourself. And then, second, if you don’t like, if your first rheumatologist isn’t a good fit, you could find another one. So. 

Jessica:  10:28

Yes, and I did find one who I absolutely love, and I was because I had that mindset, because I did kind of have a mindset of like, oh, doctors, it’s been an uphill battle for me with not only my rheumatoid arthritis, but also, I have ADHD, to get out of the mindset of everyone’s just trying to push pills. 

Cheryl:  10:50

Oh, yeah, yeah. 

Jessica:  10:51

That in itself is my own journey that I had to work with. But I was, I agree with you, I was surprised with how much time she took, and she, you know, it was the last guy, the first guy I saw, was literally, like, feeling my joints and like, let’s get some scans. And, like, take some, you know, imaging, and did another round of blood work. And I was like, oh, this person’s actually, like, looking at everything, it was very discomforting. 

Cheryl:  11:23

Yeah, yeah.

Jessica:  11:26

Yeah.

Cheryl:  11:27

Did you eventually go on medications? 

Jessica:  11:30

I did for a while. My journey is maybe, like, less popular than some people would like, but I, because I eventually just, I’ll just tell you. 

Cheryl:  11:41

I mean, the thing is, this podcast is really a forum for sharing your real lived experience. And then, if I feel like, ethnically obligated to point out, like, I have done this in the numerous past episodes, like, oh, like, you know, like, you know, we like to say, like, don’t, you know, do tell your doctor if you’ve gone off on medication or something. Like, I’ll point out anything, but, yeah, share exactly what happened, because the real life is messy, you know. 

Jessica:  12:07

Perfect. Okay, great, and all that to say, like, obviously, none of what I’m saying is medical advice, just my story. But I originally got put on Plaquenil, which I don’t know if everyone remembers the fun moment. I was already off it by the time they did this in quarantine, but when Donald Trump was like, “Oh, this will cure covid,” and I just immediately my heart was like, oh no, everyone who needs it’s not gonna be able to get it. Oh, God. And I can’t even imagine. I went on it in 2017, it was 2017 to 2018 I was taking it, and felt fine for a long time, and then I had a minor surgery on my wrist, because I had a, I had, like a ganglion cyst, it was not even — it was just a hideous lump. And they were like, we can remove it surgically, by the way, came back twice, and then I had to aspirated. It never came back. So, they tell you, the surgery works better. But in my case, that wasn’t. That’s such a side tangent.

Cheryl:  13:20

No, no, it’s okay. Someone listening might be in the same position. 

Jessica:  13:24

Just hit it with the book. I’m kidding. Don’t do what I’m saying. So, when you have a surgery, they make you go off of anything that’s like a blood thinner. And I had to stop taking my Plaquenil for 10 days ahead of the surgery. Had the surgery, and then, because I’m a workaholic that maybe doesn’t always make the best decisions in terms of rest, immediately went on tour doing stand up. And I was on the road, because I was both on tour, and then in between, going to New York City and, like, staying there and doing spots. I was out of town for maybe, like a month, and I had forgotten my medication. I just free balled it. I was like, all right, well, I’ve been not on medication before, so I’ll be okay. I’ll start when I go back to town. And then, I came back, got my prescription refilled, started taking it, and I immediately had, like, severe joint pain that I hadn’t been having. And I went to my doctor, and I was like, “Hey, I got back on my meds, and I didn’t even realize that I hadn’t been really having joint pain lately. But as soon as I started taking them, the joint pain came back.” And she’s like, hmm.

Cheryl:  14:47

I don’t know. It’s a mystery,

Jessica:  14:50

Yeah. And she was like, well, if you want, let me go try something else. And then, and this is why I go, don’t listen to me. But I was like, I think I’m just gonna, like, well, I was like, I think I’m just gonna stop for a while. And I had been reading more about diet and how that can really help with a lot of the inflammation. So, I was like, I think I, you know, I’ve been eating more healthy. I want to try that. And I will qualify this with saying I am the kind of person who will try to do anything before I take medication. And there’s a lot of reasons for that, and more of it stems from I have, like, my own family history of seeing people struggle with mental health medications. And so, that kind of just colored and, like, gave me a little bit of, like, an extra layer of skepticism around stuff.

Cheryl:  15:47

But then, are you seronegative, by the way, or seropositive? 

Jessica:  15:53

Negative. 

Cheryl:  15:54

Okay, because, yeah, the likelihood — just putting a little data point here, the likelihood of sustaining an unmedicated remission, is extremely low for people who are seropositive, but it is higher for those who are seronegative. So, that doesn’t surprise me that you have been able to be, you know. But again, there’s exceptions to every rule, and all they say, all the time you talk to rheumatologists, go to the conferences of rheumatology, there are evidence based guidelines. And then, there’s the gray area of real life, you know, the artefacts. 

Jessica:  16:24

Yes. 

Cheryl:  16:25

Yeah, so.

Jessica:  16:26

And, that’s so interesting, because I am positive I must have read that at some point and forgot that, and not me, like, on the side trying to double check my blood work, right? Because I’m like, I don’t remember anymore. But, yeah, you know. And what surprised me, so, like I brought up — so, anyone who’s read about like diet and done like deep dives that has rheumatoid arthritis probably has come across different things about diet. I had started reading about this kind of elimination diet called autoimmune protocol, and I was like, okay, but my doctor didn’t know anything about it. She’d never heard of it. And I was like, you’ve never heard anything about, you’ve never even heard about that? And she’s like, no. And I’m like, all right. She’s like, by all means.

Cheryl:  17:14

They say most doctors get, like, one 30-minute lecture on nutrition, and a lot of them do say, recommend going if you’re going to change your diet massively, to work with like a registered dietitian that has some autoimmune experience. And I will put in the show notes just before we talk about diet. Specifically, in 2022, the American College of Rheumatology, for the first time ever, put out an evidence-based guideline for integrative treatments for RA. Integrative, and this in their definition, just means non-pharmaceutical, so. And they did say, yeah, they recommended the, they said the evidence was strongest for a Mediterranean, whole foods, plant-focused, not vegan or vegetarian. But like, just having, like, whole food, plant-based, Mediterranean. And overall, when they looked at the evidence, they were against any formally defined diet other than Mediterranean. But they said that’s the guideline at the population level, when we’re talking about where’s going to be your starting point with a new patient. 

But when you’re a practitioner, whether you’re a registered dietitian or, like, I am an occupational therapist, what evidence-based practice is not just what are the scientific studies saying, it is a combination of that and what is the self-evidence of the patient you’re talking to. Like, if you tell me that you did XYZ diet, and that’s not, that’s not the one that’s recommended typically, but it’s also, it’s not harmful, it’s just not usually one that you start with. I’m not gonna be like, oh, sorry, you have to go back and, like, start — there’s other, like, that’s the evidence that you need. In your case would be, it’s working for you. Like, yeah. Like, so anyway, it’s, I’m sorry. Rabbit hole. Rabbit hole. 

Jessica:  18:56

No, but I mean, it’s so, that’s just so true. And I have to tell you, as someone who loves food, and prior to us even coming on the air, I was telling you how I ate a hot dog last night that has derailed my life. I was honestly, because I did, I started, it was basically, I started eating kind of whole foods, like just not stuff from boxes. Vegetables, meat, and fruit. It was kind of is what I eat when I, you know, every once a while get a little wild here and there, have some crackers, but, like, sorry, but that’s what I started doing. And honestly, I love food so much, specifically junk food. I was devastated that it worked.

Like, I was like, I didn’t, because it was one of those things where I did the full, kind of a full elimination for a month, and then — this is classic me. Instead of easing my way into trying, like, okay, let’s add one thing back in and see how I react, I just started munching on the extra stuff. And it was another scenario where I didn’t realize how little I’d been experiencing joint pain, and then as soon as I started eating, like, sugar and adding back in a lot more gluten, it was like, night and day. I was like, oh, oh, the pain is back. Like, instantly, heavily. And so, that was just an interesting, I don’t know, piece of information for me, I guess, and —

Cheryl:  20:31

I have the same thing. It’s like, how do you notice an absence? Like, if I’ve, if something I’ve been doing is working, then I have the absence of pain. And it’s absence of pain or absence of fatigue is really noticeable if you’ve just had really severe, you know, if you just had severe pain, and then you did an action, and that action reduced your pains, it’s very noticeable. But if you’re used to living with this chronic kind of like background noise, or maybe sometimes louder noise of pain, and then you, like —

Jessica:  20:58

It kind of just chips away. Yeah, it’s weird. Yeah, you like, take for granted being pain-free or in minimal pain when, when it kind of is, yeah, when it’s not a dramatic drop off immediately. And like, I’ll say like, I was wearing, I was wearing compression gloves non-stop. I was, like, doing all, like, so many extra things, and, you know, on top of my medication. And then, like, trying to be minimal about ibuprofen, but having days where I’d be like, all right, I just a little bit. 

And, you know, topical creams and whatever, you name it up until that point. And then, I don’t know, I want to say it’s been like, because Covid, we were really locked down in LA for a while. And of course, like, I think a lot of people with anything extra were, you know, on top of the normal stress, you’re having stress because you’re, you know, if you’re immunocompromised or whatever, and that put this other, like, that fear in my head of, like, I don’t want, I, thank God I’m not on the medication, because I, like, just crazy. We all, I don’t know, I don’t — we all went crazy. Everyone in my house went crazy. But I —

Cheryl:  21:23

It’s stressful, yeah, it was stressful. There’s a lot unknowns. There was the unknown of, you know, I will say for the record, having your immune system, if your disease is active, meaning you’re having active joint pain, all your typical symptoms like fatigue, that is not good for your immune system either, which is something a lot of people forget, right? 

Jessica:  22:46

Yeah, because it’s already in overdrive. 

Cheryl:  22:48

Yeah, so your immune system, your immunosuppressant therapy is like drugs. They suppress your immune system, but your immune system is already doing something wrong. So, you’re like, okay, well, it’s doing something wrong. It’s distracting itself from the ability to fight outside infections, because it’s so active attacking your joints that you actually need to suppress that part that’s attacking the joints. But again, I mean, it’s, you know, what you’re talking about, really, is like the real patient, like, lived experience and like the like cost-benefit analysis that take place in the ground level of your actual life, not just like, I’m going to look at a clinical research paper, you know.

Jessica:  23:26

Yeah. And then, it’s like, I’m stressed about, am I doing the right thing? And then, the stress is causing flare ups. And all my, like, healthy lifestyle habits went out the window within maybe, like, a month and a half of lockdown. It was just like, I’m eating as a coping mechanism. I’m moving significantly less, although at least eventually I did start going on, like, outdoor walks and stuff and like, just I was living with the person I was dating at the time. We hunkered down and he drank a lot, to be honest. And I wasn’t a, like, I wasn’t sober, but I wasn’t a big drinker, but there was nothing going on. So, I just slowly started drinking a little more and all of that, and eating, you know, whatever, was kind of definitely keeping me in a pain cycle. 

But I would say, you know, once I started, when we finally started, like, coming, I don’t say coming out of it, because I know we’re not, we’re not out of Covid. But when life started coming back to life again, and I changed my habits, my whole life changed. I mean, I went through a breakup and, like, focused on me. But got back to eating healthy and moving, I saw a notable decrease. And that’s been the last like two years of just trying to stay on top of that. And as I mentioned earlier, just in the last couple months, I went to the doctor and I was like, well, let’s you know, just get, see where we’re at. And she’s like, you know, it’s inactive, but if you start having issues, you know, like, just, you know, stay connected with us.

Cheryl:  25:12

Yeah, that’s really that’s pretty rare. I mean, I will say also statistically, and I can put a citation in the show notes, but that it’s more likely in general, but it could happen. Obviously, there’s always an exception to an exception to every rule on rheumatology. But juvenile idiopathic arthritis is much more likely to go into spontaneous, like, unmedicated remission, just long-term, than adults. So, I almost, I’m wondering if maybe you had —

Jessica:  25:37

Maybe I had it. 

Cheryl:  25:38

Yeah, that’s not normal to have that, like, joint, like, I was really active as a youth, and I was diagnosed with adult RA at 21 but I really only had the symptoms for like, a couple years, so.

Jessica:  25:51

That’s, I didn’t know that, and that makes —

Cheryl:  25:54

Sorry, I cannot speculate on your medical history actually. 

Jessica:  25:56

No, but, no. But honestly, you saying that is, like, just, it’s so interesting, and it’s a little like light bulb above the head of like, I don’t know if there would ever even be any way to know that, but it would make so much sense, because when I tell you I was, like, 15, and I used to wake up in the morning, and my arms, my elbows, and my wrists and fingers would be in so much pain. The thing, you know, what’s interesting is that, and maybe I remember it wrong, but, like, I never remember them looking swollen. It was just the pain on like, but I would run them under scalding hot water, and I just thought, like, this is what people do in Alaska. 

Cheryl:  26:38

Well, yeah, I think having being in Alaska is like a compounding variable. But I think the other thing this is maybe, it’s maybe me thinking like an occupational therapist, the joints on the finger are so small, and it’s a subtle, especially when you’re a child, even more so, it’s a really subtle difference, like, to note, because I’ve even tried it in my own, like, it’s hard to be a objective about yourself, but I can, like, look at my knuckles and like, yeah, when they are swollen, it is a tiny — like, the untrained eye would not practically be able to see it unless your joint, like, blew up and was, like, extremely, you know. But a lot of times, for me at least, in the finger joints, it’s like, they’re small to begin with. So, a small — do you know what I’m saying?

Jessica:  27:17

No, I totally know what you’re saying. Because also, only recently I realized, because I think my swelling has gotten even, like, even lower in the last maybe couple months, because I’ve just been really leaning into trying to, like, all right, it’s working. Let’s keep the, for the first time ever, instead of going, it’s working, I can stop now. I did it! Which is what I love to do. I achieved it.

Cheryl:  27:41

We have all been there. Most, I don’t know, maybe we’re normal, and everyone else is not normal. I’ve certainly been there. I’ve certainly been there. Yeah.

Jessica:  27:49

Well, my hands started looking even — my fingers, excuse me, started looking even more slender. And I had the thought, like, maybe a week or two ago, where I was like, have I just thought I had fat fingers this whole time, and they’ve been like, a little swollen? 

Cheryl:  28:04

So, do you ever have jaw pain, just throwing, just wondering? 

Jessica:  28:09

Yes, occasionally I do.

Cheryl:  28:10

Okay. Because that is also the, one of the things that kind of differentiates, I mean, anyone with rheumatoid arthritis, adult rheumatoid arthritis, can definitely have jaw pain. I have, personally. I mean, I’m on 21 years with it now, too. So, sometimes the longer you have it, the more likely you’re having random pains. 

Jessica:  28:24

Oh, God, you look amazing, by the way. 

Cheryl:  28:25

Thank you. Thank you. Sunscreen. No, but if you have juvenile idiopathic arthritis, which is a bunch of different subtypes, but it’s more likely to affect your jaw, especially in your younger years, it’s something about it changes how, like, your jaw bone grows. 

Jessica:  28:43

That, I resonate with that. I’ve gone through little window periods of time where it’s been, like, really bad.

Cheryl:  28:51

You know, and again, like, I honestly, I might have, like, a disclaimer like that. I’m just, I’m thinking nobody saying and thinking about like, I’m not saying that. Like, you actually have, like, I have no way of knowing, even if I was a doctor, like a doctor, I’m not even, I’m not a doctor, so just, well. But we can all, like, a lot of times, tie, like, put the dots together from things that happened earlier in our lives. And connect the dots.

Jessica:  29:16

Which I think is helpful to, like, so much is just, I feel like so much of the journey for me has just been like, been like getting clarity and going, oh, oh, that’s what that is. Like, at least having something to call it is instead of just going, my bones or something hurts inside.

Cheryl:  29:33

Oh, that’s funny say that because when I was being accused of being hypochondriac, I’m sorry. I’m going to get back to your story in a second. But it just, it is deep. I can’t stop myself. I was, I told my doctor, “I feel like there’s something wrong in my blood,” and I didn’t conceptualize that as real pain. My joint pain wasn’t that bad initially. I’m just saying my personal experience. I had, I thought I had a sprained finger that somehow had spread to, like, the other knuckle. I was like, this weird little sprain that just, like, spread, oh, well. Like, anyway. And I was like, “There’s something wrong on my blood,” and, like, now I know that that’s kind of like that feeling of the systemic, you know, inflammation. 

Jessica:  30:18

Yes, I have worked so hard to describe it, where you’re just like, I don’t know. It’s like it’s in a point, but it feels like it’s radiating, almost.

Cheryl:  30:27

So, well and, yeah, sorry, I was gonna say, or ask you, so, right before we started recording, you could, let’s circle back to the hot dog. I wanna talk about your hot dog. No, because you had said that, you know, last night you’d normally avoid hot dogs and, like, highly processed food, right? It triggered, it has historically triggered you and triggered your symptoms. And I, I think what’s so hard about that in my experience, and I know other people resonate too, is that, like, you have a theory, like a hypothesis, that you develop over time. And sometimes you’re like, okay, I’m always gonna avoid that thing that triggers me. But then, sometimes you accidentally do that thing and realize it didn’t trigger you that time, right? So, you can’t be too hard on yourself those times when you did. You’re like, let me just push it and see. Because for all you knew, it could have actually been like, oh, wow, I’ve outgrown that. Like, something in my body has changed,

Jessica:  31:19

Yeah, because our bodies are constantly changing and evolving, and it’s like it happens just with general allergies, people will just stop being allergic to things. Or so, that makes so much sense to me, yeah.

Cheryl:  31:32

But like, do you find it, like, do you ever get just like, so frustrated when that happens like, or, I mean, I feel like — sorry. My dog just wanted to say hi. This is Teddy. 

Jessica:  31:41

Oh, my gosh, what a cutie. Hello. I love dogs. Oh, it’s hiding. 

Cheryl:  31:47

We have to do like a little dog picture at the end. But like, yes, because I feel like, I always say, like, insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. But it can make you feel insane to, like, because other times you’ll be like, oh, I actually ate really well. And, like, avoided my trigger foods, and I still feel like crap. And you’re like, why? 

Jessica:  32:04

Yeah, 

Cheryl:  32:05

It’s nuts, you know? 

Jessica:  32:06

Yeah, because it’s like you think you have the answer. And then, like, I’ll still have days, and then I immediately start going, it’s back, ah. Like, where I’ll have, like, a low level but more noticeable amount of just joint pain. Like, in the morning, I still, I am still a witch for rain is coming. Like, I’m better at predicting rain than my weather app. It’s insane. I’ll just like, I feel it in my joints.

Cheryl:  32:40

You live in LA, so you’re not having too much, right? 

Jessica:  32:42

Yeah, I know that’s I think about that, too. I’m like, oh man. Like, if I did have it as a kid, what a terrible place to have lived, in the like, highest — I mean, you’re in the Pacific Northwest. And I’m like, yeah, do you get affected by the —?

Cheryl:  32:56

So, this is what’s interesting for me. And this is just, again, where my body does not follow the typical trend. In this case, for me, what reliably will result in swelling and joint pain for me is heat, humidity, and heat and humidity and rain. So, like Hawaii, when I go to Hawaii, or I went to Japan. That humidity, yeah, I know. So, but for some reason, even though technically, Seattle’s humid a lot, because, I guess, you know, because of the rain, we had a lot of mist and rain, but because it’s not that hot, for whatever weird reason, it doesn’t affect the same. Yeah, yeah. So, again, we’re all like, so, we’re all so different. And like, I’m really heat intolerant just in general. And some people with RA are, like, I ran triathlons in the desert, like, you know, like, you just don’t, like —

Jessica:  33:46

It’s so different. And I also, do you have this thing where, if I have anything else going on in my body, any type of pain, any weird reaction. I’m googling, like, rheumatoid arthritis AND, like, to see a thing that other people with RA get it, is this completely random.

Cheryl:  34:07

Yeah. Like, yeah, no, I definitely, I think, like, or I’ll just then I’ll think that I’ve thought of everything, and then I’ll learn something else can be affected by RA. Like, I was having a hard time swallowing, and it was, turns out there’s a joint in your throat, like, that joint.

Jessica:  34:23

I remember reading about that and having an absolute future tripping meltdown of, I mean, this is like, literally a moment of, hey, let’s back it up. And like, be in the present. Why are you running away with this? But I was like, if my throat joint goes, my career is over. And it’s like, what do you do? You have a sore throat? Take a breath.

Cheryl:  34:41

Yeah. No catastrophize, yeah, when you’re in the catastrophize, Chronic Catastrophizer Club, yeah, yeah. I mean, and it’s part of your brain is trying to say, my brain, thank you brain for trying to protect me. Good job. You’re working really hard. But yeah, like, we can’t predict, even if we could predict everything bad that can happen, we can’t do anything about it. So, yeah.

Jessica:  35:01

So, it’s like, let’s be here, yeah.

Cheryl:  35:03

So, it sounds like you’re, right now in like, a really, like a no active disease state, which is super cool.

Jessica:  35:16

Yeah. No, I mean, it is, and I, I’m trying to not it’s, I still have that, like, is the other shoe gonna drop of it’s gonna, like, if I’m too grateful, if I’m too happy about that, is it gonna be like, haha, I’m back. But like.

Cheryl:  35:31

Like, we recorded this episode on September 11, 2024 and like, now you’re listening to it, like, oh, actually, yeah, all you have is a present. All we have, and that’s, I mean, most people like me, it’s very unlikely that I will be in a no disease activity state, just based on the severity of my RA when I diagnosed. I’m positive, seropositive, positive on like all the markers. But right now, because I flew yesterday. Flying also makes me —

Jessica:  35:56

Flying gets me a little bit too, still. Yeah.

Cheryl:  35:59

But normally I’m in very low disease activity with the medications I’m on, primarily, and lifestyle stuff. But you know, you know, it’s all you can do is just, you know, I have a same shoe dropping worry, like, even if this isn’t a perfect state, it still could be a lot worse. So, is this the best I’m ever gonna feel right now, you know, I don’t know. 

Jessica:  36:20

Yeah, and it’s just like, okay, let me, and I do try to be like, I try to do gratitude for, you know, the health I do have, because you just never know. And also, it’s just a thing to be aware of, of, okay, this could change, and I’m fully aware of that. And you know, if that happens, and we have to go back to a medication and doing different things. Like, I’m prepared to do that, so it’s just take it one day at a time. 

Cheryl:  36:49

Yeah, yeah, no. I, gosh, I love all these reflections, and I’m just looking at the time and realizing that I definitely wanted to ask you about comedy. I remember, I don’t know if you listened to Conan O’Brien’s podcast, but he’s always saying, like, the most unfunny thing is trying to talk about comedy and, like, why things are funny. Like, deconstructing why is it funny? Like, it’s actually so, like, not funny. So, anyway, I’m like, but, yeah, yeah. But I mean, first of all, like, yeah, how did you — I am really curious how you initially got into comedy. 

And then, like, what — so, two part, like, one is how you got into it, just in the first place. And then, you know, what has the response been to the things you’ve shared about rheumatoid arthritis? Because I’ve seen people, you know, I’ve stalked you online before, yeah, you know, like, and seen that, like you said earlier. People really have, like, feel seen, but sometimes there are also people, most of it’s positive. But then, there’s always people, I do ‘funny videos’, quote unquote. I’m not, I’m not a comedian like you. But —

Jessica:  37:46

I’ve seen your videos, they are very funny. 

Cheryl:  37:49

Thank you. Oh, thank you. But sometimes people are like, and I totally, this is totally their valid experience opinion, but they’re like, this is not, like, why are you making fun of this disease? Like, this is a serious disease. And like, so it’s kind of complicated. Anyway.

Jessica:  38:00

I’ll being eye rolling as you said that, like.

Cheryl:  38:04

Well, I’m such a people — maybe you’re not a people pleaser as much as I am, because I’m like, oh, my God. I don’t want to make you feel bad. I’m sorry. 

Jessica:  38:10

That’s the hardest part is being like, I just I did this to bring joy, and now you’re upset. And I oscillate between that and then moments where I want to go, oh, shut up. Like, it’s, I mean —

Cheryl:  38:24

Well, compared to being on the Internet, I guess it’s not really specific to rheumatoid arthritis.

Jessica:  38:28

I know. There’s always going to be someone’s going to be unhappy if you share anything. And I guess that’s the risk of putting out our, or, you know, it’s like in my healthiest moments, when I’m being centered and, you know, taking care of my own wellness, I go, I hope — I feel bad that that person is in such a place of pain that all they can see is the negative, and I hope they figure it out. But I’m not always in those moments. And I’m like, hey, this is my experience. But. 

Cheryl:  39:01

Well, yeah, but how did you start? I’m so curious. 

Jessica:  39:03

I mean, I don’t think it’s that uncommon to say this for comedians, but I think I got into comedy as a coping mechanism. It was, I had a bit of a traumatic childhood, little wild family life. And I think, and it’s, you know, stems from being a people pleaser, but it was a way to keep the peace in my house. And then, I was kind of a weirdo little kid, and we moved from Mississippi to Alaska. And my way of making friends was, I want to just say, being funny. But it was real, like making fun of myself before anyone else could kind of thing, kind of humor. 

And then, I don’t know. I just that just sort of evolved into me always being kind of the funny person in class and in like that the end of high school, I was like, hosting the assemblies and doing silly, just a lot of silly things and really enjoying it. And I mean, I went to college, thinking, I want to do comedy, but I also want to have, you know, some type of stable fallback, which I graduated in 2009 which it’s the worst time to go into the job market anyway. So, it’s like, ah, you thought you’d have a stable career. 

So, yeah, it was just, I was, I was always just a funny kid and, you know, a little bit of a weirdo, but in a funny way. And I think I dealt with my own, like emotional and like family trauma that way. And then, that stemmed into just how I looked at life, and, of course, how I dealt with physical issues as well, which is where the that bit that you saw where I talk about rheumatoid arthritis, came from. And it was from a place of frustration, of, I’m sure you deal with this of people giving unsolicited — and I understand people giving advice, like, I understand the intention is, I am trying to connect with you, and I want to be helpful. But I think anyone who has a chronic anything can relate to the fact that it’s like, yeah, you don’t think I’ve looked into it?

Cheryl:  41:10

Yeah, yeah. It was a very relatable, it’s a relatable moment because, yeah, because so many of us have had — you’re exactly right, that the attention of many people when they give unsolicited advice is truly positive, like, and so you, you’re — it’s complicated, because you want to be like, shut up. But you’re also like, I acknowledge that even though the words you’re saying to me are like, completely not correct, what you’re trying to do is help me and thank you. Like, I’m grate — like, I’m a big mix of emotions. Like, I’m grateful that you want to help me. I’m annoyed that what you’re saying is not helpful.

Jessica:  41:47

Yeah, and then a little bit of it comes from like, you know, at least for me, is, like, actually, that doesn’t work. And maybe a little bit of my anger is that I’m mad that that doesn’t work, you know, like.

Cheryl:  41:59

God, that’s so — I wish, like, it’s like, for you, I’m jealous of you that, like, diet works. I think gluten free and it helps my GI. I do have GI issues on top like that are separate from my RA, and so I’m gluten free for that reason, but it made no difference in my joint pain eliminating. 

Jessica:  42:15

And I totally know that. That’s why I don’t, like, I don’t go on, like, I hate — also, here’s something embarrassing. I actually do feel a little bit better when I’m doing yoga. I can’t say this to a person with arthritis, because that’s the worst thing people say to us. And it’s like, how fucking dare you. 

Cheryl:  42:33

I know. No, no, it’s so true of me, too. I’m like, let’s not, like, yoga has become this a catch all term for, like, an example of a common unsolicited advice that’s not welcomed. But like, no, mine is exercise. I’m like, I know the last thing you want to hear is that, like, exercise is helpful. But like, you know, not just my personal experience, but you know, there’s so much research on exercise alleviating fatigue and pain and.

Jessica:  42:56

Oh, it’s a miles difference. Yeah, yeah, it’s another thing that I’m like, I wish it wasn’t — I wish I didn’t know that. For me, if I go move my ass for 30 minutes, I’m going to physically feel better, but also, yeah, my brain is going to be way more just leveled out. 

Cheryl:  43:13

Yeah, the brain fog. Because I think with a — I don’t know how you separate ADHD from brain fog, I don’t I mean, it’s probably different for each person. But the brain fog from rheumatoid arthritis. I mean, clinically, it’s called like cognitive dysfunction. And like, most providers are not taught. I mean, including myself, I didn’t learn anything about how to manage cognitive dysfunction related to rheumatoid arthritis in my OT program. We learned about cognitive dysfunction for like, brain injury and for other things. But you’re like, Well, what do you do? Like, no one knows, so you just have to trial and error. For me, my focus and energy are so much better when I exercise, but I have to, oh, not overdo it, because you’re also like, but also, if I exercise too hard, then I’ll feel even worse, and I can’t think at all. 

Jessica:  43:55

And that’s a fine line, because sometimes, I don’t know about you, but I’ll be like, feeling good in the moment. And I’m like, I could, I could push it a little bit more. And, yeah, do the plan. Stick to the plan. 

Cheryl:  44:08

Optimism is what I call it. Yeah, I just always like, I’ll be fine. And, like, flash forward, four days later. It was not four hours later, it was not fine. 

Jessica:  44:16

Like, yeah, just on my couch. Like, I’ve made a huge mistake.

Cheryl:  44:20

Yes, yes, oh, my God. Okay, sorry. So, yeah, so wait, did you — so, this is the thing I have a friend who’s done stand up comedy, and I was so funny because one day I, like, accidentally did a faux pas. And I was like, well, do you, like, do you ever do improv, like —? Are you also doing —? Oh, my God; oh, my God. 

Jessica:  44:38

Oh, so many stand up comedians are mortified by that. I love improv. 

Chery:  44:43

Oh, good. Okay, okay. I was just gonna ask you, like, like, What made you start the stand up specifically? Is it just that that was just like, did you start it in college or —?

 Jessica:  44:52

You know, I had done, I didn’t know that — this is kind of a unique thing, but my high school and the high schools in the city I grew up in had improv teams, and we would do —

Cheryl:  45:04

In Alaska? 

Jessica:  45:05

Yeah. And I, like, I didn’t know that was unique, because I’ve talked to other people, like, you guys had an improv team? And I was like, yeah, it was just, we would just do games. It was like, Whose Line Is It Anyway competitions. And I honestly kind of forgot about it until recently, when I was talking to a friend. And I was like, oh yeah, we used to do this, but that was my first experience into improv, is we had this cool, like, drama teacher who also was a social studies, just a cool guy. And I was on that team, and I loved it. And then, throughout college, I wasn’t really doing anything. I was just saying, someday, I’ll do comedy. Like, at the time, I thought I would love to be on SNL one day, and I say that I’m not turning down SNL. No, I don’t know. I’m not, like, I’ve moved on, but I didn’t know how to, how do you get on SNL? And I had heard through, you know, I’ve watched interviews and read books and stuff of some of them are stand up comedians. So, it’s like, I’ll try stand up comedy. And I signed up for an open mic, and just the first time I did stand up, like, the first laugh I got, it was like, just, it was just a feeling. It was, it was like, I found the thing that I was supposed to do. It like, ignited some sort of, honestly, I want to call it a spark. It was just a sick addiction. Where it’s like, I gotta do more. But —

Cheryl:  46:16

I’ve heard that from other like, just again, I’d be like, this is, like, my expertise is listening to the Conan O’Brien’s podcast and a bunch of other like, comedians. A lot of them say that, like, it’s like this lightning bolt that happens the first time you try it. It’s so fascinating to me.

Jessica:  46:31

Yeah, it’s like, I didn’t expect that to happen. I just saw it, I’ll go up and see how this goes. And it was, tried it, have fun. It was just like, This is what I want to do. I want to do this and so. 

Cheryl:  46:39

And now you’re doing it. I’m sorry. That is so cool. 

Jessica:  46:42

It is. I like, I worked another year. I was just like, it was my last semester of college. I worked another year, three jobs. Just saved, saved, saved. I was going to college in Florida at the time, and then I drove out to California and hit the ground running. And I did take some improv classes at first, and also do standup. And what I realized is it’s very hard to really make anything happen if you don’t lean all the way into one. So, I just made the choice of I’ll lean into stand up. Honestly, probably the time, because it was cheaper, because improv, you kind of have to almost do classes to meet people. And I’m like, stand up. I can go to open mics and just show up. But I love both.

Cheryl:  47:24

Like, I’m a kind of a control freak, so, but I’m also very social. So, yeah, I think, I feel like I like both of them for different reasons. Like, I would like, I have zero experience doing this. This is just my head. I’ve also been like, I want to get into SNL one day, like, I’m 43-years-old. Have I taken any action towards that? No, it’s just, this is a thought experiment in my head.

Jessica:  47:40

It’s a dream we all have. 

Cheryl:  47:42

Yeah, a dream we all have. And I’m like, okay, like, the stand up comedy is, like, you can control what you say, you know, as opposed to — those listening who don’t know. It’s like, that’s the people who, like, go up and they’re like, hey, Jerry Seinfeld, like, what’s the thing about corn nuts? 

Jessica:  47:57

Like, just one person in a mic. Yeah.

Cheryl:  48:02

I still, I try with my husband all the time. He’s like, shut up.

Jessica:  48:06

He’s like, oh, gosh, the corn nuts again. Disgust.

Cheryl:  48:12

But then improv is where you’re with a group of people improvising, like, each —

Jessica:  48:15

Yeah, like, making it up on the spot. And that is what I like about improv, and I did — so, there’s a school out here that a lot of big SNL people have come out of, called The Groundlings, and I did their class last year.

Cheryl:  48:28

Oh, I listen to [Name 48:27] too. He has psoriatic arthritis. 

Jessica:  48:30

Oh, I didn’t know that. 

Cheryl:  48:31

And he talks, he talks about it honestly. His episodes are very long, so if you listen to all of them, he has like a fact check at the end, which is really just like a chat, chit chat with him and the co-host Monica, and, like, about, literally, the most random stuff, and a little bit of, like, 2-seconds of fact checking. And then he’ll be like, and he talked about diet too. Like, dietary changes have had a really positive impact for him. I’m so sorry I keep jumping, but he jumps the ground a lot. That’s like, where he met, he, like, became friends with Amy Poehler there, I think. Yeah, yeah. Or, oh, not even Amy — but anyway. 

Jessica:  49:08

Oh, well, I just, I did the program last year in between, because it’s like, it’s classes, and then you can eventually, if you graduate all the classes, then you can become, like they have a thing called Sunday Company, the main company that does do these big performances. I couldn’t do those anyways, I realized, at a certain point, because they’re Friday, Saturday nights. And I’m like, oh, that’s when I go on the road. But I did the classes and everything, and I just had the best time. And it was because I’m a bit of a control freak, too, a bit, anyone who knows me is laughing, going a bit. It’s an exercise in being present and also letting go of control. 

And a side, like, I really loved that. I think it was something I needed, but also I had the luxury of going into the program. You know, a lot of people come out, and it’s the first thing they do, and they’re like, I’m gonna make it and which is, there’s nothing wrong with that, but because I’ve already, in my own way, I’m still up and coming in terms of being a, you know, a big name in stand-up comedy. But I make a living doing stand up comedy. I’m very grateful for that. That’s the fact that that’s hard to do is not lost on me. It sort of eliminated this pressure of I’m in this class to try to make it, and I was able to go in and go, this is just for fun for me, and I needed that. 

And getting to do improv for fun, and you’re not like the stakes, I’ve gotta, I gotta be better than the other guys. It actually, I think, it made me better than I would have been if I was like, how do I make this scene funny? It was like, I was able to just be there and react. And I think everyone should take an improv class. It’s a really incredible fun experience, and you meet great people. 

Cheryl:  50:54

That’s so awesome. I just that offhand comment I didn’t even know was like from my friends saying, like, how dare you —

Jessica:  51:00

But so many stand ups, it’s like this. And I what I noticed when I took the improv class was like, oh, it’s, well, this is going to be so inside stand up comedy. But improv comedians aren’t sitting around going stand-ups, but stand ups are like, oh, improvisers. And it’s I, for a little while was pretty bicoastal, like, before 2020 I was doing a lot of spots in New York. I’d go for chunks at a time. Sometimes I’d swap places with other comics. And in New York, stand up comics are always like, oh, these LA comics. These LA comics. LA comics don’t talk about New York. I’m like, I think it’s because we’re getting sun and we’re happy we’re not trapped on the train. And I love New York, and it’s my favorite place to do comedy, but it’s just such a funny disparity that like that, and then stand ups being like improvisers and improv’s like you do, everyone thought it was so cool. They’re like, “I love the Comedy Store. I’ve seen you there. Can we come to a show?” And I’m like, this would never happen. The other way around. 

Cheryl:  51:57

That is so fun. No, it’s so true. It’s, gosh. 

Jessica:  52:02

And I was having to come out to my stand up comic friends. It’s like, well, I’ve been doing improv, like. 

Cheryl:  52:08

Oh, my God. 

Jessica:  52:09

Like, I’ve been doing heroin.

Cheryl:  52:11

It is so silly because, yeah, they’re both about like, you’re doing something. Well, it does seem like maybe the improv is more of, like, this internal experience, of like, being in the present moment. But in each case, there is an audience, right? And you’re like, doing it to — well, I guess maybe not in the classes for improv, but you’re, you’re both trying to bring, I’m assuming, to bring joy or make people think, and, you know, entertain them. So, yeah, it’s totally, it’s, I used to be a really big in the swing dancing scene. I’m like, let me tell you — 

Jessica:  52:40

Oh, it’s awesome. 

Cheryl:  52:41

Well, let me tell you, I was specifically in the Lindy Hop and East Coast swing. I was not a West Coast swing dancer. And similar. And it’s actually, there’s similar, but, and there’s, there is respect, because both people are like, we love, you know, we love dance and we love ball, you know, being the, being in the ballrooms or whatever, and going, you know, dancing to live music. And so, there’s, it’s not really the same as, like, stand up versus improv, but it’s like, don’t mistake, like, I’m not a West Coast swing dancer. 

Jessica:  53:09

Yeah, it’s so funny that like that just must be human nature to have to differentiate yourself. Because I feel like, I go on the road, and you can go to any state in the middle of the country and just make fun of the state next to it. And they’re like, yeah, yeah.

Cheryl:  53:23

My gosh, it’s so true. I think it’s like that belonging, like everyone wants to feel like they belong to something, and so, yeah, that’s, and actually, there is something that, okay, I’m connecting the dots to chronic illness to bring it back to that. It’s like, you know, I’ve even had people say, well, you know, like, well, rheumatoid arthritis gets all the awareness. Like, what about X kind of arthritis? You know, axial, like, non-radiographic axial spondyloarthritis. Now, I don’t envy them having to say that name, because that’s a really long diagnosis

Jessica:  53:53

Already not helping with the awareness.

Cheryl:  53:56

Yeah, and, you know, then, or even psoriatic arthritis has less awareness. And so, people would be like, “Oh, well, you don’t understand. Like you’re lumping us all together, but like our conditions are different,” which is, it’s just an interesting or, yeah, anyway, it’s just. 

Jessica:  54:09

Oh, that isn’t, I mean, that’s so it feels you’re right, that it almost is a universal, like I want to be part of a group, but I want to be different. I want to be an individual, but also I want to belong. It’s like, yeah, what are we doing? 

Cheryl:  54:20

Just, yeah, just be, have it all. Just be, oh, my God, that’s gonna be — that’s gonna be the title. Do you listen to Lost Cultures podcast — okay. 

Jessica:  54:28

No. I should. 

Cheryl:  54:29

Okay. I have a — I love them so much.

Jessica:  54:33

I don’t listen to enough podcasts. I’m gonna add that one in my rotation.

Cheryl:  54:37

I actually listen to a lot of podcasts that are, like, about pop culture, or just to, like, celebrity interviews, like the Conan O’Brien, you know, one, something like that. And it’s like, Our Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard, and it’s like, and people are like, oh, well, do you listen to, like, the arthritis other, like, you know, chronic illness podcast? And I’m like, when I’m listening to podcasts, it’s like, it’s like, my downtime. I don’t want be listening to, yeah. So, maybe, in your case —

Jessica:  55:01

I think that’s why I don’t listen to comedy. Yeah, I’m always listening to — my boyfriend just like, makes fun of me, the amount of like development and self-help or just like motivational podcasts I listen to. But, I mean, it is good, but sometimes I’ll just, I already — and I don’t know if you can relate to this as, like, an ADHD type. But I already come up with too many, like, business project ideas, and then all I’m listening to these things, like, I should make a course about — and he’s like, no, just write jokes. Focus on the goal. 

Cheryl:  55:36

Oh, oh I Yeah. Let me introduce you to my ADHD hobby graveyard. Yeah, I actually like, so, okay, yeah, yes, I relate. I hundred percent. 

Jessica:  55:47

I’ve had to grieve the loss of, like, projects I cannot do.

Cheryl:  55:51

No, totally. I just, and I have, I started this like thought experiment where I just say, like, you know, no matter what, even if I didn’t have rheumatoid arthritis, right? There are only 24-hours in the day. So, I try not to tie, like, my limitations in what I want to do and like achieve in my life to the condition, because it — yes, to validate, like, if you’re disease is active and if you have a lot going on, like, there are going to be times you have to say no to things, you know absolutely not push your body too hard. But also, it’s like, I know my personality, and I know what I was like in the 21-years before I had RA, I had endless things I wanted to do, endless, you know, like, so I wouldn’t have been able to, but I’m also, to my husband, I’m gonna write next year, I’m gonna write the great American novel, you know, I want to write a book. I want to, yeah, so many things. Oh, you should probably write a book. 

Jessica:  56:39

I want to start three different podcasts. It’s like —

Cheryl:  56:41

Oh, my gosh, yeah, it’s okay, that’s we need — it’s like, actually, I was listening, I always listened to a business podcast too, and it was like, you need, what do they call it? I already forgot. But it’s like, my auditory processing is, my auditory memory is really poor, like, my visual memory is really good. So, when I read something, I remember it, but when I listen to it, I don’t remember. It was something like, you need, like, executors, and then you need like visionaries. It’s like, I’m like, the visionary. 

Jessica:  57:06

Yeah, the idea people. 

Cheryl:  57:07

Yeah, we’re the idea people. I start the execution, but I need someone else to finish it. 

Jessica:  57:11

Yeah, here’s an idea. Can you do it? Because I have other ideas to implement. 

Cheryl:  57:18

Yeah, yes. In grad school, I had a good friend who she was, like, it was we were such a good team, because I was always the one that had all the ideas. And she was like, okay, so, like, let’s funnel it down. Like, so 16 ideas. We’re gonna do the one. And, yeah, so it sounds like your, your boyfriend is like a good fit.

Jessica:  57:35

He’s been very good at, like, reining me in on, he works on the industry side of entertainment. So, that’s just coincidental. And has been very helpful, though. Of like reminding me, hey, like, here’s the goals you set and also just like encouraging me, like, if you keep focusing on those, they’re gonna keep growing. So, don’t let being in the middle, because it’s easy to just you get bored. Or, like, I didn’t get the dopamine hit from, you know, a big win, or whatever, when you’re in the middle of a project that you get when you start one and it’s all excitement.

Cheryl:  58:10

Oh, so true. So, true. Oh, my gosh. One, you mentioned a podcast. Okay, so I should get, I should get on, just time wise, only because I don’t want to, like, I could talk to you all day. But I was gonna ask, like, Do you have a favorite, a favorite podcast or favorite book or show you’ve been consuming lately?

Jessica:  58:30

Big fan of Mel Robbins.

Cheryl:  58:32

Oh, Mel. She tells it straight. 

Jessica:  58:35

She does. I love her. And this a book I read recently, which I think is kind of related to what we’re talking about with all our ideas. And I’ve honestly been pushing it on people is, I can’t remember the author’s name, but there’s a book called The Perfectionist’s Guide to Losing Control. 

Cheryl:  58:51

Okay, this is synergy, because someone in my Rheum to THRIVE support like group. We have an alumni group that keeps meeting someone there just recommended that to me. I just bought it, and I haven’t read. 

Jessica:  59:02

I just finished it. It’s Katherine Morgan Schafler is the author. I just looked it up. That was very helpful and eye opening to me, because I’ve had people tell me I’m a perfectionist. I wish there was a different word, because I’m like, I’m so far from perfect, but —

Cheryl:  59:20

No, that’s the thing, that you’re trying to be.

Jessica:  59:22

Yeah, and it really, like, honed in on, like, oh, she breaks down to five different types of perfectionism. I have a friend who I recommend, I recommended it to, like, eight friends, and then been like, I hope you’re not taking offense to this. It just was helpful to me, and maybe, maybe it won’t be helpful to you. But I have one friend who I was like, she’s also a comedian. And I was like, oh, I think you’ll really, like this book will be good for you. You’ll relate to it. And she posted a picture of because she was taking, there’s a quiz portion to it, and she was taking that online. And she’s like, it’s like, the second question, and she’s like, I’m taking a question on perfectionism, and I got to this one and I can’t figure out which answer makes the most sense, and I’m absolutely breaking down. And I’m like, oh, that’s so hilariously on point for who the book is for, but.

Cheryl:  1:0017

Yeah, yeah. You’re like, I’m a failed perfectionist. I’m not perfect yet. 

Jessica:  1:00:21

Yeah. And it just like gave a lot of great reframing tips, and then like ways to kind of use whatever your type of perfectionism is as a strength and also just validating for me. Some of the things — I have this thing where sometimes I think things I do are really unique and quirky and crazy like that, I’m like, I’m a crazy person. And then, I go, oh, this is human. This is kind of, yeah. A lot of people are like this, I’m not a crazy person.

Cheryl:  1:00:52

Yes, yeah. I recommend Kristin Neff. Her books on self-compassion are really good on that, on that, just, like understanding, like, just forgiving yourself for not, for that, for being human or — no, I shouldn’t say forgiving. That sounds like very religious. I’m not religious. But, like, you know what I mean?

Jessica:  1:01:11

Yeah, like, self-compassion, like just being like, hey, we all, yeah, we all, like, don’t always get 100% all the time. And congratulations, yeah, oh, that’s great. I have it pulled up. I’m gonna, I’m definitely gonna —

Cheryl:  1:01:25

I haven’t checked out. I need to check out Mel Robbins’ podcast I listened to for a little while, and then it like I forgot about it. 

Jessica:  1:01:31

I go through ups and downs with her, because sometimes I’m like, Mel, you’ve just made up a list to get an episode out. Like, I’m fighting with a woman I don’t know. And I’m like, okay, this one’s a stretch, but then I come back, I’m like, she got me again.

Cheryl:  1:01:45

Oh my gosh, no, that’s, yeah. Do you have any best or favorite words of advice for somebody who might be listening, who’s newly diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis?

Jessica:  1:01:58

I would say — gosh, what do I even want to say? That you don’t — this is more helping people a piece than probably rheumatoid arthritis. You don’t have to take every piece of advice everyone gives you deeply seriously. Like, look into stuff, listen to your body, but also it’s okay to not have to, you know, if you find a thing that’s working for you and you’re feeling better or feeling okay or in some type of control, don’t feel like you have to go mixing it up because someone’s like, I read this thing about whatever. Yeah, grains of salt, I guess, is what I would take other people’s advice with a grain of salt. Listen to your body.

Cheryl:  1:02:48

That’s really important. That’s — you can, I guess, especially if you’re people pleaser. I really resonate with with that. I think it was, yeah. 

Jessica:  1:02:55

Well —

Cheryl:  1:02:56

Sorry, go ahead. No, no, no, you go ahead.

Jessica:  1:02:58

No, just, I do think that there is some type of component that it doesn’t surprise me when someone with an autoimmune disease also is a people pleaser. I just think there’s some type of emotional trauma, holding stuff in or trying to hold the world together, that can be feeding this. And I’m not, I’m not saying that’s it’s causing it, but it doesn’t surprise me that like people who are trying to help everyone else’s bodies are like, what about us?

Cheryl:  1:03:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it is. It is, definitely it can exacerbate it, for sure. And I definitely, when you said that, you know, I did think to myself, yeah, you know, the, and it might just be the people I’ve encountered through social media, but that does seem like there’s a lot of us out there, you know, this, the kind of anxious, overachiever, autoimmune. 

Jessica:  1:03:59

Yeah, it’s, interesting that, like, there’s like, yeah, I’ve noticed that too, but, and then it’s like, maybe that’s just like attracting like, and that’s just who I’m seeing. But I just it’s something I have noticed and always been, like, are these somehow feeding one another? 

Cheryl:  1:04:14

Yeah, who knows? I mean, that’s the thing. Nobody knows the cause of rheumatoid arthritis at this time. So, I mean, I think this scientific consensus is that it’s a, it’s most likely an inherited predisposition that meets an environmental trigger, which could be something like a virus, could be something like a trauma, emotional trauma, that certainly — childhood, adverse, ACEs, adverse childhood events, people who have ACEs or high ACEs score are much likely, more likely to have an autoimmune disease in general. Yes, there’s just no one silver bullet cause, you know. 

Jessica:  1:04:52

And I think that’s also important for people newly diagnosed. Remember that like don’t if someone tells you they know what, what’s causing —

Cheryl:  1:04:59

Well, and just because some, there may be something that triggered, it doesn’t mean that if you you can’t untrigger, like, like, you can’t control it, you know, oh, you’re gonna reverse it. Like, no, my root cause and my rheumatoid arthritis is probably that I have a family history of it. And there I got a virus. I did get a stomach virus. Yeah, it’s like, so I can’t, like, doesn’t help me. It’s like, oh, because your umbrella helped you in the rain doesn’t mean that, like, if you, like, put the umbrella out, it’ll control whether it rains again. Like, it’s like, opposite. 

Jessica:  1:05:31

Such a great way to say it. And also, the other thing I would advise on, is like, try to not let yourself get in the worst case scenario spiral. I did that like a little bit at the start where, like, what is the worst possible thing that, how this could go, you know? And it’s, you know, I hate to say it, meditation helped me a lot with, not with my arthritis, but with how my brain reacted to it. So, yeah. Oh, and being able to be present. 

Cheryl:  1:06:02

I was super, like, I was super dragged kicking and screaming to mindfulness and meditation, and I accepted they’ve all been, like, so helpful. 

Jessica:  1:06:12

I know, but I’m like, okay, meditating, and it’s not— once you give up and start doing it, it’s not as woowoo as it doesn’t have to be as woo woo as I think a lot of people think it is, and that, yeah, building the muscle of just catching yourself kind of spiraling about the future has been very helpful to me.

Cheryl:  1:06:30

Yeah. So, what do they call it? I always want to say future surfing, but that’s not — 

Jessica:  1:06:36

Future tripping? 

Cheryl:  1:06:37

Future tripping. Yeah, yeah. I remember when I I had never went to therapy until my son was about one year old, and I was like, okay, I’m struggling.  Mama needs help.  I remember asking her, like, is it still postpartum, like, anxiety or depression? When you’re, like, the baby’s a year old? She’s like, oh, yeah. She’s like, I actually get a lot of people who are like, they just tell their brain, and this is exactly what happened to me. It’s like, just make it through the first year. Just make it through the first year.

Jessica:  1:07:01

And you think it’ll just go away. Yeah, I think my mom still has it, and I’m in my 30s, so godspeed. 

Cheryl:  1:07:09

Honestly, yeah. Like, it starts, like, mom brain, like, oh, how old is your baby? I’m like, he’s 10. But, yeah, I remember my therapist being like, it seems like you have this belief that if you just think about all the worst case scenarios and you’re going to be protected from bad things happening. But like, has that actually been the case? Like, have you been able to control anything from —? It feels good, what they call like, it’s like, it’s like spinning your wheels in the mud, you know, like you feel like you’re going somewhere, or you’re doing something, you’re spending energy; you’re not going anywhere.

Jessica:  1:07:38

Yeah, and it’s like, through the act of just trying to do something. It’s like you’re trying to get this false sense of control. God, I relate to that so deeply. 

Cheryl:  1:07:45

Gosh, my therapist is amazing. I need to clone her. Okay, last one of the rapid-fire questions, but obviously, which each can be, like, a long question, is, uh, what, yeah, what does it mean for you to live a good life and thrive with rheumatic disease?

Jessica:  1:08:03

Well, for me, it just means, you know, being grateful when I’m having low pain days, and meeting my body where it’s at and doing what I can while honoring that, you know, sometimes I have to take a little bit slower and pace myself and being okay with that. And also that you know that my body has to operate a little differently than it used to. Maybe it isn’t a failure, isn’t a loss, it’s just a change in how we do things. It’s it operates how it’s supposed to for me in this moment. And I guess that is that. 

Cheryl:  1:08:47

No, I love that, meeting your body where it’s at. I think I’ve been kicking around the idea a lot lately of, like, internalized ableism and like what that looks like and what that feels like. I think part of it could be like a sense that I can’t possibly have a good life with this thing. Like, it’s and it’s actually a weird form, like, back in 20, like, when you’re first diagnosed, I’m not saying you — you did not say anything that felt ableist to me at all — but I’m thinking, like, what people are like, it’s like, this weird idea that we grow up with, and like an almost like an ableist culture, where it’s like, well, people with disabilities or health conditions are either like, you know, it’s either like a complete tragedy, or it’s like a complete like, they overcame it and now they’re inspirational. 

Jessica:  1:09:27

Yeah, instead of just being a, it’s like a human. 

Cheryl:  1:09:30

Yeah, like, it’s like, we have it, like everyone has struggles. Like, mine happened to be the arthritis struggles. Like, I also don’t have a lot of struggles that some other people have and like, so it’s just, I don’t know. Anyway, kind of a half-formed thought, but, you know. 

Jessica:  1:0943

Yeah, I get it though, yeah, it’s like meeting your body where that’s so true, too, because the amount, like — and I think you really can’t realize how much internalized ableism you have, and until you suddenly have your own struggle that you’re like, oh. What does this mean? And for all of these things, you know. And like you said, that it’s fine, yeah, that it’s okay to have to operate differently, I think there’s — for me, it’s so funny that admitting a struggle with your self-worth sometimes feels like an additional layer of like a struggle with your self-worth, but like you’re just as worthy, like, I’m just as worthy of anything I get, anything I earn, anything I do, anything I have with arthritis as I am or would be if I didn’t have it. 

Cheryl:  1:10:35

I mean, that’s powerful, you know. And like, yeah, when you first said meeting my body where it’s at. I was thinking specifically about, like, yeah, when you say meeting my body when I haven’t just been diagnosed with a disease, or even just now 21-years down the line, it’s like, like, actually meeting that with love and compassion and gratitude, versus saying, oh, my body’s like, there’s this problem with my body that I need to, like, solve. And again, not just say that, like, we want to get our disease into the best possible state to be, especially in the early days. If you’re listening to newly diagnosed, you do typically, you know, the recommendations to aim for full remission, like, whether it’s, you know, typically medicated. So, you don’t want to, you don’t want to settle too quickly. But also, at some point, it’s about saying, like, I still can love and embrace and connect with this body and be grateful for it, even though it has, like, I’m like, I sometimes just feel like, compassionate towards my little immune cells that are like, you’re trying so hard, working so hard, yeah. And it’s like, I’m sorry you’re doing the wrong thing. But. 

Jessica:  1:11:37

I’ve, I have been a cynical person for a lot of my life. So, it, it has taken a lot of work to even like, to get over the self-judgment of that comes with self-love of, you know, almost talking to your body and being grateful, and like, of the things it is doing, and how hard it works for us. And that, man, I can get real emotional and corny as hell talking about that stuff. But. 

Cheryl:  1:12:03

Well, I think as a comedian especially, that’s really great that you’re able. Because I think I do — that’s something I have noticed about a lot of comedians, is that they seem to be like, they’re like, afraid of being emotionally vulnerable. It’s seen as like, a weakness. And I just, I love that you’re like, no, I’m gonna be vulnerable and be like, not to say that your comedy is like that, in a sense of like, you’re not sitting there being like, you know what —? I mean, you know what I’m saying. Yeah, anyway.

Jessica:  1:12:28

Yeah, no. Well, it is a thing, because there is a thing with comedians where they want to be seen as, like, cool and tough and just like, fuck this, fuck that. And a thing I didn’t mean to happen when I, like, wrote the joke about arthritis. I didn’t go like, I’m going to write a joke for all of my people who are feeling a struggle, you know. I didn’t go like, this is for us, you know. But then when I had people reaching out and going like, oh, my God, thank you for saying this and like, thank you for — that’s in my brain, and you put it into words and in front of an audience and in a way that, like, I had never said out loud. And like, that’s been great is going, oh, I think there’s so much strength and vulnerability. And we’re really not taught that as a society. And I wish we were that, like, you opening up and being honest and caring with yourself helps other people around you. 

Cheryl:  1:13:18

A hundred percent. and I, I just want to give like, kudos to you or whatnot, but I’ll just, you know, when you talked about your childhood being difficult, like, I always say, like, my childhood was like, and I know my mom listens to this podcast — hi, mom! — my childhood, and this is literally what my —

Jessica:  1:13:33

That’s always my disclaimer too. Like, hey mom, thinking about you. 

Cheryl:  1:13:37

Okay, well, no, I mean, like, I just happen to have, like, literally, grown up in like, Mister Rogers Neighborhood, like my childhood was, according to my therapist, like a positive, she called it a positive outlier. Like, literally, that’s how good, like, it was truly like, and I’m not just talking like socioeconomic or anything, it’s like the love and this attachment and security I had as a child and was, like, my childhood alone and the fact that I have RA is proof that, like childhood trauma, like, or —

Jessica:  1:14:05

It is not the direct correlation.

Cheryl:  1:14:08

Like, no mistaking, there’s no, there’s no gray area that just didn’t happen. 

Jessica:  1:14:14

You can rule that out as the thing that causes it all.

Cheryl:  1:14:17

As the single, maybe multi causes. But just the fact that, like, I think it’s hard enough. I mean, even for — and so, even me being so, like, I feel like I grew up in the 80s when it was all about, like, self-esteem movement and like, telling everyone that they’re the most special person and giving them a trophy. I like, internalize all of that in a positive sense. I’m like, yes, I’m amazing. 

Jessica:  1:14:38

I too deserve a trophy. I love that. 

Cheryl:  1:14:40

But even that, it was hard for me to go to therapy because — or to I went to therapy, but then it was hard for me to, well, at first I was like, well, I shouldn’t go to therapy because, like, isn’t that for people that had a hard childhood. Like, I just, yes, and that it could be for people with like, other kinds of issues, and then also, like, then, I was always comfortable talking about my arthritis, but I wasn’t comfortable talking about mental health in my therapy. I think it was that deep seated, like I want to be seen as strong. And like, talking about having to go to therapy is like, a weakness, you know.

Jessica:  1:15:09

Yeah. And then, like, admitting your own emotional things is like, oh, now — and there’s not anything wrong with having those things. We all have them. But like, it is that, like, internalized, well, now I’m a person who’s in therapy for my mental health, and we just go, ah, yeah. I mean, it’s getting, it’s gotten so much better, but I deeply relate to, like, oh, if I admit that I’m not okay, then I’m not okay. And I want to be perfect. I want to be I’m strong. And like, it’s like, yeah, you also need to talk to somebody.

Cheryl:  1:15:42

Yeah, it’s like this, yeah, two things, they can exist, they can coexist. And so, I just yeah, that’s, I don’t know. I’m so excited. I’m excited for you to continue your comedy career, and whether you do more, when you do a lot more on arthritis or not, yeah, that the joke that went viral is like living in infamy, like.

Jessica:  1:16:03

I know, and I’m almost like, I don’t know if I, I don’t know if I could top that.

Cheryl:  1:16:11

It’s a perfection thing to say, though you’re gonna be fine. Yeah, that isn’t that the — I’m sure you find this with comedy. But I find just as being like a content creator on Instagram and stuff, and I consider myself like a patient educator, but I, you know, I create content to educate people and support them, but you never know. You didn’t set out with that joke to be like, by the way, I’m gonna put the link to this joke. We’re like, super teasing with this joke right now. Sorry, guys. You have to go —

Jessica:  1:16:38

So much pressure. Good luck. Find it somewhere.

Cheryl:  1:16:44

This is the tease, yeah, but it’s like, you don’t know what’s gonna resonate with people. Like, there are so many times even to this day, literally today the video put it today. I’m like, this video is gonna resonate so hard with people and like, it didn’t seem like, immediately seem to resonate as much as other ones where I spent like, two seconds on it, and I’m like, huh, this is funny.

Jessica:  1:17:02

Story of my life. Or it’s like, the thing I spend the least amount of time on, that’s the thing people like. And then, the thing I will spend hours curating and being like, Yeah, this is gonna change everything. Just no one even cares.

Cheryl:  1:17:15

You just don’t know. So, you just had to put it out. So, maybe, yeah, most likely, if you do put out a joke that goes even more viral for that in the arthritis community, it won’t be one, won’t be one that you thought was going to. Just see what sticks. Yeah, yeah. Well, anyway, sorry, I’m terrible at wrapping these up, but I just like talking to you. But is there anything else you want to share with the audience before we wrap up? Like, where people can find you online?

Jessica:  1:17:41

Yeah, you can find me pretty much all the major social media outlets. At JMS Comedy, I have a podcast called Ignorance is Blessed, where I just share my thoughts. I sometimes interview people about their expertise in their life, or, you know, random parts of their identity. And then —

Cheryl:  1:17:59

I love that name, by the way, that’s such a clever name.

Jessica:  1:18:01

Thank you. I had to get over for — I spent a lot of episodes over explaining it like, hey, I know that that’s not the that’s the whole point of it. And then, I just was like, fuck it.

Cheryl:  1:18:10

Good. It’s no. And I like, I almost called this, This Arthritis Life, kind of after, like, This American Life. But I don’t want to be like This American Life, it’s a great podcast, but it’s like, no, it’s like, super high production value. Like, I mean, I was like, I don’t want to set expectations that’s going to be like, you know.

Jessica:  1:18:32

Like, it’s just me, like, that’s so funny. Well, I love that you do this, because it’s great to I like, just remember, especially when I first got diagnosed, like, looking for anything of like people who can relate. So, I love that you do this, and then I will say, in the event that there’s any crossover listeners of people who are into smutty fantasy novels, like A Court of Thorns and Roses. I also have another podcast that we are, I co-host with my friend Nicole Aimee Schreiber, who’s also a really funny comedian called Two Filthy Nerds. And on Friday, I don’t know when this is coming up, but Friday the 13th, we are dropping the first two episodes where we’re going through the entire series. 

Cheryl:  1:19:14

Wait, what? What’s her name?

Jessica:  1:19:16

Nicole Aimee Schreiber.

Cheryl:  1:19:17

Oh. Aimee. Nicole Aimee Schreiber. 

Jessica:  1:19:19

A-I-M-E-E.

Cheryl:  1:19:22

Okay. Oh, I recognize it. Okay. I’m looking at her.

Jessica:  1:19:25

You remind me of her. You guys both have aged fabulously.

Cheryl:  1:19:28

Oh, okay. Oh, thank you. 

Jessica:  1:19:31

She also was just like, around your age, and she’s like, don’t go in the sun. And I’m like, Okay, well, I don’t have a time machine to tell myself that, it’s too late for this skin. 

Cheryl:  1:19:39

Growing up in Alaska. Like, probably, hello.

Jessica:  1:19:42

Right? So, I soaked it all up. 

Cheryl:  1:19:45

People in Seattle always get sunburned in the winter, actually, because they go skiing and they don’t realize that, like, you can still get the reflection, yeah, but, but back to that. No, they’re actually, I’m scheduling right now with a woman who lives with a bunch of health conditions, but she wrote a, I wouldn’t call it like I don’t know if you want to call it smut or not, but it’s a really good it’s a adult romance featuring people with rheumatoid or 1% of rheumatoid arthritis in the story, I think you would like. It’s a whole series called the — what was it?

Jessica:  1:20:21

The Wilmette Sisters?

Cheryl:  1:20:23

No.

Jessica:  1:20:24

Just Googling.

Cheryl:  1:20:25

No, the other one, brothers, Always Only You, Bergman Brothers, she was actually going to be on the podcast, and then I wanted to read some excerpts on it, and then it was like, she wasn’t sure how to talk to the publisher. And then, we had to, like, figure it out. But anyway, so that’s I didn’t know that I would like that genre, because I think it was totally like an internalized misogyny of like, hey, any romance novels are just stupid or whatever. And then, I read it.

Jessica:  1:20:48

Yeah, same. I was like, yeah. I had friends tell me about it for like, months before. I was like, fine, I’ll read this thing. And then, it’s been an uphill battle not making it my entire personality, to be honest. So, the podcast will be out. 

Cheryl:  1:21:02

I am so gonna listen. I’m literally gonna be your first subscriber.

Jessica:  1:21:06

Yay, Two Filthy Nerds. That’s what that’s called. And so, come on over.

Cheryl:  1:21:12

Oh, and there, I mean, it’s the BookTok is a thing, like Book Tik Tok. Like, people love talking about books, and it’s been really fun participating in that.

Jessica:  1:21:20

Oh, yeah. I’ve gotten real sucked into that. 

Cheryl:  1:21:23

Like, again, one of our special interests is, like, hyper fixation. And you’re like —

Jessica:  1:21:29

Yeah, that’s, yeah. And that’s, of course, like, my whole Explore page right now. It just goes through, goes through phases, and now it’s all bookstogram BookYok.

Cheryl:  1:21:38

Mine’s like, all, like, Paralympics in Taylor Swift, ah, I got really into the Paralympics and like different couples, people getting engaged.

Jessica:  1:21:47

Oh, my God, I love it.

Cheryl:  1:21:49

All right, well, I will let you go. We went way over. I’m so glad you were able to go. 

Jessica:  1:21:54

Well, thank you for having me. This was awesome. I really appreciate it, and I just love that you’re doing this. So, thank you for putting this out there. 

Cheryl:  1:22:00

You too. No. I mean, all of your work is awesome, even the stuff I thought about arthritis, okay, so, and I hope you continue recovering from your hot dog, from your assault.

Jessica:  1:22:12

Yes, that will be the rest of my day.

Cheryl:  1:22:15

Okay, well, thanks again. We’ll talk to you later. 

Jessica:  1:22:18

All right. Bye.