What’s it Like to Run Your Own Business with Rheumatoid Arthritis? Sarah’s Story

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Summary:

On Episode 143 of The Arthritis Life Podcast, we check back in with Sarah Dillingham, who was the first ever guest on the Arthritis Life Podcast!

Sarah shares her diagnosis journey for rheumatoid arthritis, and how her creative decorating of her wedding day splint led her to form a unique joint support company: Grace & Able. Sarah and Cheryl discuss the challenges and benefits of running a business while managing rheumatoid arthritis (RA). Sarah shares her personal experience of balancing flare-ups, joint pain, and fatigue with the demands of entrepreneurship.

Cheryl and Sarah also discuss practical strategies for managing RA symptoms while maintaining productivity, from pacing your workday to leaning on support systems. They also explore how to prioritize self-care and flexibility, so you can successfully lead a business without compromising your health. This episode offers valuable insights for anyone navigating business ownership with RA.

Episode at a glance:

• Sarah’s rheumatoid arthritis story: Sarah shared what it was like to get diagnosed in her 20s and overviews her up and down treatment journey over the years.
• How Sarah’s Wedding Day Splint Led her to Develop a better joint support company: the story behind the popular Grace & Able joint support company!
• Balancing RA Symptoms with Entrepreneurship: Sarah shares tips for managing flare-ups, joint pain, and fatigue while meeting business demands.
• Practical Strategies for Productivity: Sarah shares tips including pacing during the workday, setting boundaries, and using tools to stay on top of tasks.
• Importance of Support System: Cheryl and Sarah discuss the role of team members, outsourcing, and community support in sustaining a business.
• Prioritizing Self-Care: Tips for integrating rest, stress management, and health routines into a busy schedule.

All content found on Arthritis Life public channels was created for generalized informational purposes only. The content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

Episode Sponsors

Rheum to THRIVE, an online course and support program Cheryl created to help people with rheumatic disease go from overwhelmed, confused and alone to confident, supported and connected. See all the details and join the program or waitlist now!

Speaker Bios:

Sarah Dillingham

Rheumatoid patient Sarah is on a mission to empower people with arthritis. Since being diagnosed over 20 years ago, she has set up an online community (Women with Rheumatoid Disease) and a business making better joint support (Grace & Able). She also loves a good chat, proper British cakes and hanging out with her mini-schnauzers.

Cheryl Crow

Cheryl is an occupational therapist who has lived with rheumatoid arthritis for nineteen years. Her life passion is helping others with rheumatoid arthritis figure out how to live a full life despite arthritis, by developing tools to navigate physical, emotional and social challenges. She formed the educational company Arthritis Life in 2019 after seeing a huge need for more engaging, accessible, and (dare I say) FUN patient education and self-management resources.

Episode links:

• Links to things mentioned in episode or additional listening
  • Arthritis Life Podcast: Episode 1 – 2020 – Sarah’s storyEP 81 – Jan – stoic philosophy
  • Learn more about the Arthritis Life Hack Extravaganza
• Sarah and Grace and Able’s links
  • www.graceandable.com instagram.com/graceandable_officialfacebook.com/graceandablehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahdillingham/
  • https://www.facebook.com/groups/WomenWithRD/
• Cheryl’s Arthritis Life Pages:
• Arthritis Life website
• Youtube channel
• Instagram @arthritis_life_cheryl
• TikTok @arthritislife
• Arthritis Life Facebook Page
• Cheryl on Twitter: @realcc
• Arthritis Life Podcast Facebook Group

Full Episode Transcript:

Cheryl:  00:00

I’m so excited today to have my first ever guest, ever, ever, ever on the Arthritis Life podcast, which, at the time, was the Arthritis Life YouTube channel. I didn’t even think I was gonna make it into a podcast in 2019. Sarah Dillingham is back!

Sarah:  00:17

Yay!

Cheryl:  00:20

Come on dancing. Welcome!

Sarah:  00:24

Well, thanks for having me back. I’m very excited to be back. And, yeah, I’m really impressed that, you know, 143 episodes in.

Cheryl:  00:34

Oh, no, it’s very it’s very exciting. Yeah, we’ve been before we started recording, we were reminiscing a little bit about where our lives were at, you know, in late, I think it was either late 2019 or early 2020 But yeah, it wasn’t. It didn’t publish it till June 2020 but it was pre-pandemic, because we were in, yeah.

Sarah:  00:52

For sure. Yeah, I remember. Wow. That seems so long ago now, doesn’t it?

Cheryl:  00:56

It really does. But can you just start by letting the audience know where do you live and what is your relationship to arthritis?

Sarah:  01:03

Yeah, so I live in Washington state, in a town called Snohomish. And although I’m originally from London in the UK, as you can hear from my accent, and I was diagnosed over — gosh, it’s got to be like 22 years — over 20 years ago now with rheumatoid arthritis back in the UK. So, I’ve been a rheumatoid patient for over 20 years.

Cheryl:  01:28

Same. Yeah, we’re on the 20-year club. We need a badge for that.

Sarah:  01:34

Yeah, maybe. Yeah. I survived 20 years of RA kind of thing. 

Cheryl:  01:40

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Ask me about something. 

Sarah:  01:42

Ask me anything.

Cheryl:  01:43

Yeah, I love that. We should get t-shirts. And yeah, you know, we did in more detail, we covered your diagnosis journey/saga in the first episode. But, you know, in case someone hasn’t checked out that one yet, can you give a little synopsis about your how did you, how you got diagnosed?

Sarah:  02:02

Yeah, so I had a situation where I had a lot of pain in one of my fingers, and I actually thought I’d broken my finger. And so, I kind of ignored it, just thinking it would sort itself out, because I was in my mid-20s, and you do that sort of thing. And eventually I went to my doctor, so my GP, primary care provider. And I was very fortunate, because I said to him, “Hey, I think I’ve broken my finger and it’s not healing. Can you take a look?” And he took one look at it, and said, I think you’ve got arthritis. And I am very grateful to — at the time, I wasn’t — but I am now very grateful that he recognized it so quickly, because I know that’s not a typical experience. I obviously, being in my 20s, and having very little knowledge of arthritic conditions, just assumed he was talking nonsense, and did the whole, “What are you talking about? Way too young,” thing, which, you know, it’s obviously quite ironic now.

Cheryl:  03:07

You just, you don’t know what you don’t know.

Sarah:  03:10

Yeah, and he sent me off to, I was very fortunate, sent me off to a rheumatologist, and I got diagnosed straight away. So, within, I mean, I had to wait to see the rheumatologist a bit, but I got diagnosed within a few months. And then, within six months, I was straight on to DMARDs. So, I had sulfasalazine, you know, methotrexate, what else, Plaquenil, I never know if I pronounce that right. And so, I got, I really would say, from initial noticing there was a problem to getting onto medication and treatment was about six months, which is really fast.

Cheryl:  03:49

That’s really like a success story, yeah. So, when you’re living through that in your 20s, and I’m assuming you were the only one that you knew that had this, right? So, you have nothing to compare it to. To you, it’s still probably a big deal. I mean, it is, I’m sure, a big deal to be like, what, I have to take this medication for arthritis. Isn’t arthritis, just like, one joint hurts and you put cream on it or something, right?

Sarah:  04:12

And I, you know, I’ll be honest, I was so busy having many other adventures that I just went down the road of more or less just ignoring it. I was like, okay, I’ve got some pills. I’ll take them. I’ll get on with it. And of course, back then, we didn’t have so much information access with the Internet. We didn’t have online patient groups, didn’t have social media. So, you know, the information I got was basically a leaflet from the doctor that had a picture of a really, really old man on it, like an old man holding a walker. And I actually remember the picture, that’s the thing. And I remember thinking, I remember looking at it on the bus home, thinking, huh, like, I don’t get why they’ve given me this.

And, you know, it just basically explained what the different medications were. So, it was great they gave me that printed information, but it really just didn’t click with me because, because of the way it was presented. I mean, you know, it seems very antiquated to talk about that now, but, yeah, I just have this super vivid memory of truly just not really understanding what I was diagnosed with, what it was about. I really just didn’t get it. But I am still thankful that despite my own lack of knowledge and, to be brutally honest, curiosity, at the time, I was fortunate enough to be assigned medical professionals who just got on the case and got me treatment.

Cheryl:  05:40

That’s such an important perspective to remember, though. That like, yeah, when you’re in that stage of your life, so many other things are more important than your health, because you’re kind of taking your health for granted. Like, okay, I guess I have this thing. Anyway, gonna go focus on the rest of my life. And, yeah, I really identify with your story. Even though it took me longer to get diagnosed, I kind of didn’t, didn’t completely understand what it was until, for me, it wasn’t until my first biologic medication stopped working and my body created antibodies to it, that then I was like, wait, what is this? What? What am I dealing with like? This is, like, I thought it was kind of like a solvable problem with medicine, like, yeah, so take the rest of my life. So, I know you’ve had — that was one of the things where we talked about, maybe highlighting some of the highlights and lowlights for you of your treatment journey. I know you and I have both been on multiple different treatments. What have been some of the highlights and low lights for you?

Sarah:  06:43

Ah, I’m very happy to share. So, that sort of little honeymoon period I talked about, of the first year of diagnosis where I could put my head in the sand, that that came to a halt pretty quickly. Because what I discovered was, after a year or so, maybe it was like a year, maybe it was 18 months, the rheumatoid just got a lot more aggressive very quickly. I don’t know why or what happened, but I went from something that was just affecting like a couple of my fingers that I could say not completely ignore, but, you know, it was manageable, suddenly it got really bad, affecting multiple joints. And at the time, this was pre-biologic. So, the way, the primary way I was being treated was through increasing doses of methotrexate and also higher doses of prednisone. And, you know, both effective medications. But also, for me, they both came with some pretty significant, difficult side effects. 

So, I suddenly started to find myself in this really scary, scary situation. And that was definitely a low light of just constantly going back and being given more and more methotrexate, and, you know, just find it wasn’t quite helping. And I seemed to be getting, you know, just this, like there was, like there was, like a year, I think, what just seemed to be getting worse and worse and worse and just being prescribed more and more and more. And it all just became very, very challenging. Awful, awful year. I then lucked out in that biologics had been introduced into the US at this point, but they weren’t very common in the UK. And I remember again very vividly, I was in a medical appointment with a doctor and rheumatologist, so my rheumatologist and a nurse. And I was actually crying because I was struggling so much with the pain level I was in. I was worried I was going to lose my job, all of that stuff. 

And after the appointment, I left the room, and the nurse followed me out, and she said, “Can I have a chat with you?” I said, “Sure.” And I thought she was just coming to be nice, and she was coming to be nice, just very kind. But she also said to me, you know, “We’re actually looking for people to do a clinical trial of a new medication. Would you be open to?” And I just said, “Yes.” I didn’t even ask what it was. I was like, yes, whatever you want to do, let’s do it. And I was so fortunate, because it was Humira. And I got onto one of the earlier trials of Humira in the UK through the hospital I was on. And that was the highlight. So, that’s where it went, very low to very high. I had a great reaction to Humira, and I was so fortunate that I managed to get 10 years from Humira. And you know, I would say that’s the closest I’ve ever been to remission. And I don’t ever know, I never know, technically, what remission counts as, but you know that for me, was a remission. I had several years where I was doing really, really great on it, and yeah, just so grateful for that situation.

Cheryl:  09:49

Was your pain and your fatigue and other systemic symptoms, were all those just really low at that time?

Sarah:  09:57

When I was on Humira? Yeah. Absolutely. I think the two, so just all the key rheumatoid symptoms, swelling, fatigue, pain, you know, they all sort of go hand in hand. They all reduced significantly on Humira. And then, the other great thing was, because it was so effective, I was able to then reduce the other medications I was on. So, I didn’t take it on its own. It was in conjunction with other meds. But the specifically prednisone, specifically methotrexate, I was able to bring those doses down and eventually get off prednisone, which was great. And so, that meant I was able to stop having to deal with some of those more challenging side effects from those two meds in particular.

Cheryl:  10:43

I do okay, I do well on methotrexate, but prednisone is tough.

Sarah:  10:47

It can be quite the ride. 

Cheryl:  10:50

Yeah, emotionally, anxiety wise, sleep wise, it’s rough. So, yeah, I’m so glad you got to have that.

Sarah:  10:58

Yeah, and I, you know, honestly, I mean, yeah, it was phenomenal. I couldn’t even have imagined it was possible when I started taking it. I remember at the time telling a friend of mine, this is so amazing. I feel like I’m aging backwards right now. Like, I keep waking up and I can move more things. And I was like, yeah, it was great.

Cheryl:  11:20

Wow. And then, the subsequent years, and once again, I’m sure this happened in our first episode. I reviewed it briefly, but yeah, similar situation that I was in. Also, I consider I was in full medicated remission only because I had, like, no symptoms when I was on my biologic that worked for me. But then it stopped at some point. I had to then go to this journey of the last 10 years of ups and downs, of trying new meds and them working for a while and then not working. And I know you’ve kind of gotten through some similar stuff, plus the pandemic that just made life —

Sarah:  11:59

That just wasn’t, it wasn’t that fun, yeah. So, similarly, yeah. Eventually Humira stopped working for me, and then I went off to try different things. So, again, there was another bit of a bumpy year or so while I was figuring out, but nothing as bad as previously. And I put that down to the reason, you know, even though I was still getting sort of, I had this — once Humira wore off or stopped working, and I started trying things like Cimzia and other meds, I found myself in a situation where I was back to having that level of inflammation and pain that’s pretty significant, pretty severe. But I was actually, funny enough, able to handle it better. I think just because I had a better understanding of what it was and what some of the options were, also had better relationships with rheumatologists. I had relationships with other patients, so I just felt like it was much easier to handle than previously. That said, eventually, I was very fortunate in that my rheumatologist recommended I try [ Name] 13:04infusions, and I started doing those, probably about four years ago, so probably just before pandemic, probably around the time I met you, we did that.

Cheryl:  13:16

Oh, my gosh, yeah.

Sarah:  13:18

And I have, yeah, done really well on those. So, overall, they’ve worked really, really well for me. Not perfectly, I have had a few problems with them. But you know, really, I’m, you know, they do manage the rheumatoid really, really well. And the thing I like about them is that they happen every six months. So, you know, that does really free you up in terms of if you’re tied to, like, biologic injections, and you have to keep them in the fridge or whatever, you know, and you have to wait for them to be delivered. There’s a little bit of organized, excuse me, organizing around that. Whereas with the infusions, you know, it’s quite nice to think — there’s still some organizing, but it’s quite nice to realize that, you know, in between them, you have, like, a few months where you’ve got a little bit more freedom or less of that to worry about. So, I really appreciate that element of it. And then, I also very much like going in to get them, because they have a very nice reclining, heated seat. My clinic have started including a heated seat. It’s like a heated recliner. So, I go in, I doze off, and the process is pretty straightforward. You just sit there, you know, having the IV drip, and it’s done. So, yeah.

Cheryl:  14:44

That is nice from like a daily management perspective, for sure. And, you know, I also want to to review one of my favorite origin stories is the origin story of how you founded Grace & Able — oh, you know, spoiler alert. Sarah, if you didn’t know, is the founder of Grace & Able, the compression glove place that we’re matching. My favorite color is the purple ones.

Sarah:  15:10

Oh, yeah.

Cheryl:  15:11

Yeah. And it’s just, anyway, now I’ve set you up because I’ve said, oh, it’s like, the best story ever. So, I feel like, if I were you, I’d be like, oh no, now I’ve got to —

Sarah:  15:20

I have got to live up to it. Yeah.

Cheryl:  15:22

Sorry, no, it’s just, it’s — okay. So, tell me about what inspired you to start Grace & Able? And there has been a lot that’s happened in the five years.

Sarah:  15:34

There has been a lot, yeah. So, okay, so obviously, my own experience with rheumatoid was that when I was having those periods where I was having a really rough time, I was constantly looking around for other products that could help with it, and one of the things that I used to use quite a lot was a wrist brace, because I had a lot of pain in my right hand and wrist. And eventually, I had to wear a wrist brace at my own wedding. So, my husband and I had planned this very twirly whirly dance, and I needed some extra support, so I went to my trusted — realized it was like this very lumpy, beige strappy, not great product. Although functionally great, but you know, in terms of comfort and attractiveness, not so much.

So, I redesigned it, I made it match my wedding dress, and I covered it up so I could wear it during this twirly dance without wincing in pain all the way around. So, once I’d done that, I took a photo, I shared it online, I showed it to other people with arthritis. And I started getting people contacting me, saying, “Hey, we would love some joint support products like this that are more attractive, that are more comfy, and are really designed specifically for people with chronic pain conditions,” rather than just, you know, a sports thing or an injury. At that point, I got together with a chap called Trevor, who is a hand therapist, who you also know.

Cheryl:  17:02

It was the weirdest coincidence that we went to high schools together.

Sarah:  17:06

I know. It’s super random.

Cheryl:  17:09

When I saw him on your website, I was like, my worlds are colliding. We’re both in Washington state, so it’s not —

Sarah:  17:15

Yes, yeah, but still, quite surprising.

Cheryl:  17:19

It’s still, yeah.

Sarah:  17:19

Yeah. And he, as a hand therapist, was also sort of interested in this concept about coming up from the angle of, I need my patients to get the medical benefit from these products, and I need them to wear them for a certain amount of time, but they keep taking, you know, if they take them off because they’re embarrassed to wear them in public or because they’re making their arm itchy, they’re not going to do that. So, we started talking about, well, if people have products that are nicer colors, nicer fabrics, you know, specifically designed for the long-term wear you have with chronic pain, you know, is that going to be helpful? And, yeah, we started designing our own products, wrist braces and compression gloves, and we started selling them. And it’s really started taking off over the last couple of years.

Cheryl:  18:11

It’s been, yeah, it’s been incredible. It’s so interesting, because I remember vividly the first time I was also, you know, given one of these off, we call them in the OT world, off the shelf, like the off the shelf, which, technically, yeah, your products are off the shelf, too. But these were, like, the the old school off the shelf, like, just kind of generic, bulky, ugly, either black or beige. That’s the choices you have. Like, and they don’t, they’re not comfortable, you know, they’re not, yeah, and so, I mean, I’m just like, just want to take a moment to recognize, I just think it’s really beautiful that you took this experience of being frustrated — or, well, first of all, you took lemons and made lemonade in terms of this lumpy beige. 

You’re like, okay, well, my wedding is coming up. I do not have time to form a company in the next, like, I am going to, like, plan and design what I completely long-term need. So, I’m trying to design something that works for this wedding, and then how it just evolved into something that’s now not only — and sorry, I’m gonna, like, give away. I should, like, ask you a leading question, but like, my brain’s not following along. One of the things that I personally as a user have found helpful about now, to be objective, whether it’s yours or other people, when you have an invisible condition, when you put something on, like a compression glove, it gives other people in your world a visible sign of your pain. And have you heard that from the people, the users, too?

Sarah:  19:45

Absolutely. So, we hear — it’s really interesting. So, very tiny backtrack, and I’ll come back to that is I just want to be really clear, our whole mission for Grace & Able is to empower people who are dealing with these kinds of invisible, chronic conditions. So, been talking a lot about arthritis, but we also have customers who have things like EDS or neuropathy and all sorts of different conditions, trigger finger. And so, what they have in common is they usually have some kind of long-term chronic condition. And so, we hear really interesting and different things. So, we have a group of people who absolutely want what you’ve just said. They want people to see that there’s something going on. And they’re not going to grab their hand really hard and shake it, you know, or they’re going to recognize that they’ve got something happening. 

We also have a group of people who want the opposite, they want to super blend in. And excuse me, and what they want is they don’t want people saying to them, “Oh, what’s wrong with you? What have you done?” Because they have to hear that day in, day out. So, one of the things that we try and do is offer options like that. So, we have some things that are brighter colors, and we have some things that are darker colors in the middle. So, there’s still colors like this, like there’s some, we’ve got blue color and some baby blue type color where they’re tasteful and, you know, and they look nice, but they’re a little bit more toned down. And then, we also got some colors that are more in line with different skin tone shades, so people can really blend them in if they want. And yeah, and then that way, we can cater for the people who want to make it more obvious, and the people who really just do not want anyone commenting on it at all. Yeah.

Cheryl:  21:37

What’s it like to not want attention from other people?

Sarah:  21:43

I personally quite like mine.

Cheryl:  21:49

You’ve got the two ends of —

Sarah:  21:52

[Laughs] But no, I mean we, like I say, we have customers across the spectrum of that. So, we have people who are like, “I want to be proud of what I’m dealing with. And I’m gonna go for,” like, I don’t know, we used to have, well, we still have a little bit, like, a very bright pink color, “I want the bright pink thing.” And then, we got other people who, like, they either want the black or the skin tone, so it just depends on the person. And then, I have people who mix it up and just depend on their how they’re feeling on the day, right? You know, people feel different moods, different days.

Cheryl:  22:22

That’s so true. And yeah, definitely now that there’s been more in person events like, for example, I will sometimes wear actually a slightly more noticeable brace on a day where I’m going to be having to shake hands and stuff like that, just so it’s not mistaken for being something that’s, like, quote unquote, merely like ‘aesthetic’. Sometimes people think that this is like an, like a normal glove type thing, which is great, you know. But I want to be clear, like, please don’t squeeze my knuckle. Please don’t. And I also usually say, gentle; gentle, please.

Sarah:  22:59

Well, let me run this, Cheryl, because I was chatting with someone about this. So, we were thinking, we’re doing a new run of wrist braces soon. And I was actually looking at, there’s a fabric I can get, this, like, a really bright orange color. And I was actually considering doing, like, a bunch of them, and just calling it, ‘Don’t Shake My Hand Orange’.

Cheryl:  23:18

Oh, I mean, you know, I love that. I was actually like, a buzzer, this is the OT in me, that if they squeeze beyond pressure, you’ll receive a small amount of power —

Sarah:  23:32

That would be great. Gives maybe, if it gives them a little shock. So, they go, oh!

Cheryl:  23:37

Yeah. And I remember, I think it was the first episode that we, that you talked about that being an issue with you because you were working. But, you know, and I think right now, a lot of the work that I’m doing is in the chronic illness space and the healthcare — luckily for me, it’s even if I’m in an in-person event, it’s like most people have it, like, a rheumatology conference, some part of their mind is this concept that, like, maybe squeezing people’s fingers is not the greatest idea, right? Whereas, if you’re in the corporate world, they don’t necessarily think of it. 

So, but back to the overall idea, I love that how you identify the different audience members, or, you know, customer types that you have. It’s really — and the same person might want something different each day, depending on the context of their life, and they might switch them out throughout the day. I love that. I personally bedazzled my great love for Taylor Swift and I got lots of compliments on those. And yeah, I just, I, but yeah, it’s also great to clarify that these can be, you know, used for any cause of chronic pain, like fibromyalgia, Ehlers Danlos Syndrome, or arthritis, or just maybe an old injury that just never healed all the way.

 I think about — sorry to bring up such a random example — but why do I want to say — Jimmy Fallon. Why did I want to say Johnny Carson? I’m like, nope, he’s dead. Jimmy Fallon had an injury to his ring finger. Yeah, he got his ring finger — his wedding ring got snagged in something and really caused, like, a big injury to his finger. Those kind of injuries, they don’t heal all the way, and you might have some chronic pain in one finger. There’s just so many reasons you might wear these gloves. So, it’s not just arthritis, but yeah, I would love to hear more about — you said there were some new different shades, because I do know that, like, from like a diversity inclusion standpoint, at times, if people think about, like, a quote unquote, ‘nude’ shade, like, but it’s like, Caucasian, you know. So, tell me more about this.

Sarah:  25:50

Yeah, for sure. So, we, one of the biggest requests that we had for really long time was, “Can you do a skin tone?” And I’m putting in quotes, a skin tone, ‘nude’ shade. And I really didn’t want to just offer out the classic beige, because I really felt, I often call it the skin tone shade that doesn’t match anyone’s skin tone, because there’s a very — you know? And I was like, let’s not just do beige. So, what we wanted to do is just offer some different colors that work for different skin tones. And so, we are about to launch our new range of like nude/neutrals. So, we have five shades coming that are all going to be coming now, basically. We have a what I’m calling ‘Tickled Pink’, which is a nice pink color. We have just a standard black color, which is often popular. But we also have a cocoa brown, which is a deeper brown color. We have a cinnamon brown, which is a mid-brown color. And then, we have a sandy beige, which is, like it sounds, a lighter sort of sandy brown color. 

And the idea is that if you are looking for something that is a bit more blendable into your skin tone, you hopefully could find something in that range that works. If you are just looking for something that’s like a just a nice, neutral color that’s maybe going to go with, you know, like a suit jacket or something like that, you’re probably going to find something that works in that range, too. So, yeah, we really wanted to offer that. And in terms of developing those colors, we spent quite a while looking at different products. And, you know, that offer skin tone ranges because we wanted to offer colors that we thought would work. And one of the things we looked at were things like True — I think they’re called True Color bandages? So, these are bandaids. And we actually had a chat with some of the people there about how they chose the colors, and took some of the — they were very, very kind of generous, and gave us some great information about how to go about it so that we found good shades that should be, you know, should work for people, yeah. So, yeah, excited to get them out there.

Cheryl:  28:19

I think that’s it’s really great. You know, as I’ve done more like photography and stuff like that, you really do — most of the time, I like the idea of wearing the ones that stand out for me. But there are, definitely, are times like maybe giving a professional talk or something, where you might want the focus to be not on, you know, people thinking, “What’s on her hand?” or, “Why is that there?” Something like that. Or, yeah, for whatever reason, just liking it better, liking the color better because it matches your skin. I love that. It’s so much more, it’s more inclusive, you know, to different, to everyone’s different experience. So, I think that’s going to be really, it’s going to be really exciting to see. Those are not — are they for sale yet or no?

Sarah:  29:03

So, we have soft launched them on our website, and we are going to be doing like a bigger launch. And yeah, so they’re coming in October. I don’t know exactly when this is going to go out, but yes, so mid-October. So, maybe they might be on sale for when your podcast is.

Cheryl:  29:22

Yes, so by the time, yeah, well, I’ll definitely have links, you know, in the show notes, as always, to the stuff that we discuss here. So, including Grace & Able. And I think another thing that I am thinking the audience listening, or the listeners might be wondering, is, and I’m sorry I didn’t prepare you for this question, so feel free to if you don’t want to answer. It’s a simple — it shouldn’t be, it’s not incendiary or anything. It’s not like, “Who are you voting for in the election?” No. What’s it been like for you running your own business while having RA?

Sarah:  30:00

Yeah, that is a good question. So, yeah, great question. So, one of the, one of the reasons I started this business was because it was so hard doing my old job with RA, you know, things like commuting, I used to have to, you know, you know, the travel involved in going into an office was very, very difficult. I have a lot of problems with my knees. I have a lot of problems with my hands. You know, even when I’m on good meds, I still have a lot of problems. So, that I was finding so difficult. So, being able to set up a business where I can work from home has been huge. And I know attitudes to work obviously have changed over the last few years, but for a long time, it just wasn’t really something you could do very easily. So, that has been very positive. But I am always very aware of having RA and having to think about, you know, pacing myself and managing things. And you know, when you’re running a business, that doesn’t always go together very well. So, the things I do are, first of all, making sure that I plan ahead a lot, particularly around infusion times, because not just the day of the infusion, but also for a couple of days afterwards, or even a week afterwards, I can feel a bit odd. And you know, just making sure that I organize things so that there’s not going to be any huge demands on my time around those times. 

But what that means is I have to put in extra time prior, you know, in advance of that. And then, I also rely, you know, we’re very fortunate in that we been doing very well this year, and I’ve been able to hire a couple of people on our customer support team, social media, and sort of logistical side of things. And I really have to rely, you know, it’s really critical that if for some reason, I’m having a rough day with RA, which does still happen occasionally, not a lot, but occasionally, that I know I can trust my team if I have to say, you know what, I need to just be be offline for a couple of hours for whatever reason, that I know they’re going to be able to do what they need to do. And that’s what’s really critical. But I would say that for anyone who is living with any kind of disability or chronic health issue. The great thing is that nowadays, you know, the ability to work from home really does open up just so many options that just weren’t there before. I mean, it means that you can start to manage your time in a way that works for you. 

And, you know, just to give you a quick example, I know myself, and I am great in the morning, and as the day wears on, I start to get more and more feeble. And I’m pretty much done by six o’clock, to be honest. I’m like, quite tired, and I know that a lot of that is fatigue with RA. I know that, you know, there’s a certain level of swelling and pain and fatigue I’m always going to have to deal with. I say, you know, 2, 3 out of 10 pain level is great for me, you know, all of that stuff. And, you know, I just have, I just adapt how I run things and how I do things. So, I put, for example, if I have to have important meetings, I try and put them as early as possible. If I have to, you know, I just arrange my day honestly around the way my body works. And that’s running your own business means that I can do that. I’m not at the mercy of, you know, other people’s schedules. So, I’m very grateful that I get to do this and that I get to earn an income whilst having this condition. So, yeah, it’s, you know, a good question.

Cheryl:  33:51

Yeah, well, no, and I I’m definitely not asking selfishly, not just going on, because I’m like, those you who’ve listened to a lot of episodes know that I’ve said a couple of different times, like I’m working on building a team as well, that I know that’s critical for me. Because it’s not just — it’s the stress for me of having feeling like the ball is stuck, like the ball stops here. The balls, I’m the one juggling the ball. So, I’m working on passing some of the balls of my business to other people, too, and that’s so important. But I also really relate to talking about with designing your day or arranging your day. I’m very similar to you. I’m the best in the morning. Like, if I need, if I have something that really needs a lot of brain power, I schedule it in the morning, and then I usually can recharge my batteries if I have a nap in the mid-afternoon, but if I know I’m not going to take a nap that day or just a rest, then I know I can’t do something like, super difficult for my brain.

Sarah:  34:51

Yeah. And I think that’s, you know, just sensible to sort of, especially when you’ve had these conditions for a long time, you really know your own body and how you function. And so, it does. It does make a big difference. But one thing I will say is the running a business, even when you get to the point where you can hire people, that buck stops here, the stress, that doesn’t go away. It’s just a different one. I’ve just handed that off, and then a new thing arrives. So, that is true, that’s just the nature of it, I’m afraid, but it does get easier.

Cheryl:  35:25

That’s true. But that’s a great analogy to also, like, the chronic illness and the rheumatoid arthritis aspect of like we want there to be this day, like, that comes —

Sarah:  35:35

There isn’t, yeah. And, you know, I know you talk a lot about acceptance on some of your other podcasts and or some of the other episodes, and I think that that’s actually the key to it all, is, you know, I’m never gonna not have rheumatoid. I’m gonna have better times and I’m gonna have worse times. But the reality is, I have it. I’m going to have it for the rest of my life. I’m going to have it while I’m running this business. I’m going to have it doing whatever else I want to do. So, I have to, like, my starting point is, I’ve got rheumatoid and this is what I need to do to manage it, and then I organize stuff around it.

And honestly, sometimes it means I have to say no to things, you know, particularly when there’s, like, you know, there’s a lot of kind of, you know, startup type events, which are all like, “Oh, let’s go to drinks, you know, really late in the evening,” or, let’s all go and stand up for three hours at a drinks event and, you know, and I’ve got much better of saying, actually, sometimes I can do that, but sometimes that’s just not for me. I don’t want to go to something that starts at like, 7 o’clock and goes till 10 o’clock and I’m going to be standing up for three hours. It’s just not going to work for me. So, I’ll, you know, meet people in other ways, and that’s fine.

Cheryl:  36:53

It’s like, you know, you’ve heard that phrase FOMO, like, fear of missing out. I’ve also heard people say the joy of missing out, JOMO. I think that’s so true. I think especially when I know both of us do some of our promotion of our business online, right? So, yeah, and online, there’s no end of the party. It’s the party is 24/7, right? You can always be making more content, responding to comments. And you have to give yourself — this is me coaching myself, because I know you’re better at boundaries on social media than I am, but that you have to give yourself an end point. Say, “No more internet today.”

Sarah:  37:30

Yeah, I think that’s it. It’s just really, for me, a lot of it just comes back to being — because I have a lot of FOMO. I’m terrible. I go to everything. I would go to the opening of an envelope, I’m ridiculous. But I have to, I have to be realistic. It’s taken me, like, literally, 20 years to work this out. But I have to be realistic. I really do have to pace myself, or I mess myself up for the next three days. And you know, so, yeah, it can be hard just accepting that that is what it is, and it’s not going to change. And I want to kick against it all the time, but I know it’s worth it in the long run. I am more productive and I am happier when I pace myself. I just need to, you know, remind myself that that’s the right way to do things sometimes. I’m sure you’ve experienced something similar.

Cheryl:  38:22

Yeah, a hundred percent. And something that I kind of, I don’t know if you would call this like a kind of like a CBT, like a reframe, or just something that helps me remember, that helps me in those moments, is reminding myself that even if I didn’t have a chronic illness, I would still have to say no to something because I’m literally a finite being that like needs —because I was this way when I was a kid. I’d want to everything. I want to go to every soccer game, do you know what I mean? So, it’s like, realizing that it’s not really about the chronic — yes, the chronic illness is a factor on any given day, I might have to say no to something, but also, it’s not just a chronic illness thing. Everyone has to — if you have a lot of interests and ambitions, saying yes to Grace & Able was saying no to maybe you probably had 20 business ideas knowing you, you know, 20 different ideas that you could have done.

Sarah:  39:20

Oh, absolutely, yeah, you have to decide what to prioritize. You know, you have to be able to prioritize things and work out where your time is best spent. And that is true for everyone. But yes, absolutely, for people with chronic health conditions, it’s even more critical, because we have less less less energy and time and all of that good stuff.

Cheryl:  39:45

Yeah. No, this totally relatable. And I know a lot of people listening are relating to it. And before we go to the rapid fire questions, I love that you just you painted a very vivid picture of, like, how you manage, you know, running your own business with RA, working from home, pacing yourself. Is there anything else you do on a daily basis — in addition to wearing the gloves, of course, for pain, reducing pain and swelling — you know, are there any other tools in your toolbox you’d like to share, whether that’s, you know, taking a hot bath when you’re stiff, or a cold pack when your joints are hot and inflamed, or any exercise, lifestyle, anything else that you do?

Sarah:  40:25

Oh, I do all sorts of stuff, and I’m very happy to share the things. These are things that work for me. So, first of all, I do try to eat an anti-inflammatory diet. I don’t know if I’m always successful with it, but I, you know, and I do it in a very, I’ll be honest, very broad sense, which for me, boils down to eating, trying to avoid sugar as much as I can, or carbs where I can, although not cutting them out completely. But I do try and reduce sugar because I know, obviously, it’s inflammatory thing. And I do try to follow a kind of broadly healthy Mediterranean style diet with lots of fruits and veggies and things like that, because I know that those are things that can help diet wise. I also don’t really drink alcohol very much. For the same reason. I definitely notice that if I drink more, I tend to flare up more. Similarly, I practice meditation and gratitude every morning. I definitely find that helps me manage stress levels; again, because stress tends to spike RA for me. So, that’s helpful. And then, I have all sorts of tools and gadgets and bits and bobs, including TENS machines, what else, yeah, cold patches, hot patches, compression things. Yeah, you name it, I’ve got in a cupboard. I actually have a cupboard with a pile of stuff in. 

And then, alongside that I have, you know, bits and bobs, particularly in the kitchen, you know, like jar openers, or I’ve got, like, I’ve got a drawer of different things like this, you know, can openers and gadgets. Because otherwise, if I don’t have them, I’m stuck. If my husband’s out the house, I’m like, how do I get into anything? I can’t open it. You know, I have all of that kind of stuff. And I, over the years, I’ve just found the ones that work and the ones that don’t. And then, the last thing that I — the best exercise for me is swimming, because of how much my joints are supported in the water. And one thing I found works really well for me is when I switch between cold water and warm water. So, what I try to do at least once a month is get to a situation, whether it’s like a spa or something like that, where I can go in, you know, like a hot pool and then into a cold pool, and I literally just hop between them.

And I really find afterwards that doing, like, whole body kind of contrast dip really, really helps. So, for me, I go to a Korean spa. I won’t get into too much, but where they have that different heated pools, yeah, and I treat myself once a month, and I just do that. I just hang out there for a few hours in the different pools. And I find it has a really, really, I definitely feel much better afterwards. It really helps to reduce inflammation for me. that’s

Cheryl:  43:25

That’s amazing. I love that idea. I never thought about going into the Korean spa for that specific reason, but now I’m gonna think about it. I’m gonna ask you questions about that offline. And I just was thinking of a fun content idea. It’s like a show and tell, like, what’s in your drawers — like, you know, Sarah opens a giant cupboard — yeah, yeah. At this point now, I have so many, because there’s things that I bought that I’m not I don’t actively need, like, childproof magnet, you know, magnetic childproof cupboard things where I’m like, oh, I could have used this, you know, 10 years ago, but I’m gonna try it out to see how arthritis friendly it is. So, I have even more. I have the stuff that I actually need on the everyday basis, like the gloves and, like, you know, the arthritis friendly scissors. But then I also have additional, like, as an OT and patient educator, like, let me try this. Let me try that. So.

Sarah:  44:19

Oh, and I’ll do — one thing I just remembered is in the kitchen, I just, I have no relationship with this brand at all, but I love an OXO Good Grips product.

Cheryl:  44:31

Oh, yeah.

Sarah:  44:32

The best. So helpful, yeah, the Good Grips products. I’ve got quite a few of those as well in the kitchen. So, yeah, really rely on those.

Cheryl:  44:44

Yeah, they’re not only wide handles, but they kind of have some nice texture too. Well, this is so great. And, yeah, when I first had you on the podcast, you know, again, you were my very first guest, so I think I didn’t have the same set of I call them rapid-fire questions. I ask them to everyone now because it’s a nice little ritual way to, like, kind of start wrapping up the episode. And also, it’s fun. If you’re a listener, at least when I listen to other podcasts, I like hearing sometimes, like, the same different guests answer the same set of questions, if that makes sense. So, you can just see, it’s just, it’s just fun. So, the first question, what are some of your favorite or best words of wisdom to somebody newly diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis?

Sarah:  45:30

Yes, so I would say, if you’ve just literally just been diagnosed, the first thing to do is just take a day and breathe, because it can be, you know, it can be quite overwhelming to receive that diagnosis. And also, you just want to get a bit of time to process what you’re hearing, and not, you know, just dive into either, you know, just take a bit of time to process it. And then, my next thing would be to get some information. So, one of the great things now is that there are so many places where you can get information, very different from when I was first diagnosed and got that terrible leaflet. You can rewind.

Cheryl:  46:19

Burn that leaflet someday.

Sarah:  46:20

I wish I still had it. I would. But, you know, things like this podcast, obviously, there’s so many, you know, there’s Arthritis Foundation, there’s AiArthritis, there’s so many different places you can go for information from really reputable sources. There are plenty of other people out there who are patients and medical professional sharing information. So, as long as you’re going to somewhere that is pretty credible, I would strongly suggest going in there and, like, just gently starting to research it from some of these places. And also, you know, remember that there are patient groups. There are plenty of other people who have been in your shoes and are 5, 10, 15, 20, years down the road from where you’re sitting now, and those people are usually very, very happy to share their experiences and information with you, and also lots and lots of support and empathy. Because, you know, all of us who’ve been diagnosed with any kind of serious chronic condition, we all know what it feels like to be in that spot, and it can feel scary and overwhelming, and you don’t really know what’s going to happen, and suddenly your life’s going to change and your plans might be different. So, we all had that experience. So, I think there’s you know, be aware that you can tap into those people who’ve sat in that spot and are able to share some tips.

Cheryl:  47:44

I love it. I second all of those. Do you have a favorite book or movie or show that you watched recently or read?

Sarah:  47:53

Yes, so TV shows, I’m going to actually pick two TV shows I’ve been watching recently, and they’re both British, and in London, where I’m from. So, one of them is a TV show called ‘Industry’, which is about finance professionals. And I kind of like watching it smugly, because I no longer work in the corporate world. I have an extra layer of enjoying it, but it’s a great show. I love it. It’s a great show, full stop. It’s really fun. It’s brilliant. I love it. And then, the other show I really like is a show called ‘Slow Horses’, which is about some incompetent spies, and it’s got Gary Oldman in it. And it’s also set in London or in the UK. It goes all over the place. But yeah, I love that. It’s just a really fun show and quite funny, and, you know, bit of a thriller aspect. So, yeah, I’ve been enjoying those recently.

Cheryl:  48:50

That’s awesome. We just, Charlie, my son and I, just was finished the audiobook version of The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. Oh, we love it. Yeah, I believe it was Stephen Fry who was —

Sarah:  49:02

Stephen Fry? Yeah, yeah, he’s great.

Cheryl:  49:05

So great listening to that.

Sarah:  49:06

Yeah, fantastic.

Cheryl:  49:07

Obviously, it’s based in London.

Sarah:  49:11

Did Charlie like it? Does Charlie —?

Cheryl:  49:15

Loved it. Loved it. Just great, great humor. So, yeah, I’m just, I’m adding my pick there. And you talked earlier about, you know that you do practice meditation and gratitude like that. Do you have a favorite, like a mantra or inspirational saying that helps you?

Sarah:  49:34

Yes, and I wrote it down so that I relay it correctly. So, I’m a big believer in stoic philosophy, and this is one I — I looked up some of some of the stuff from Marcus Aurelius, and one of the things he says is, “You have power over your mind, not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength,” which I think is really just a way of being aware of you can control, you can only control so much, and there’s stuff that’s outside of your control. And actually it’s quite good just to be able to let that go and say, all right, well, you know, because some things don’t work out.

And so, that for me, thinking about RA, you know, there’s so much I can do to manage this condition, and I do everything that is feasible for me to manage it. And so, it’s quite nice to be able to let go that if I suddenly get a random flare, I’m doing everything I can to manage this. I’m not going to beat myself up if it happens, I’m just going to find ways to cope with it and manage it and not be like, you know, not be beating myself up, “Oh, I wish I hadn’t. I wish I’d done this. I wish I’d done that.” You know, I’m doing the best I can, basically, and I can’t always control the way this condition happens. You know, sometimes it just comes out nowhere, and it’s bad, and you just have to find ways to manage it. So, it’s kind of that sort of thing.

Cheryl:  51:05

I, a hundred percent — the Stoic philosophy pretty relates, in my head, at least to the acceptance part of, you know, accepting what’s out of your control. And I want to shout out also, Episode 81, Jan talks about her journey with RA, EDS, dysautonomia. And she talks in depth about, like, Stoic philosophy and Marcus Aurelius, too. So, I just have to, I try to, like, shout out other interesting things people might — so, if you wanted to learn more about that, that’s a that’s a great one. So, yeah, extremely important. Well, and then last one, this is a little bit hard to answer, but what does it mean to you to live a good life and thrive with rheumatic disease?

Sarah:  51:50

Yeah, so I think thriving is just being, you know, going back on the things we’ve talked about, being honest with myself about my limitations and realistic yet still finding creative ways to have fun and enjoy life and find ways to do the things that I want to do in my life. You know, I’m not big on the whole, “Oh, I won’t let it stop me. I’ll overcome it,” kind of stuff, which I’m not knocking that, but you know, for me, that’s kind of setting myself up to fail, right? I think it’s, you know, for me, living a good life with RA is, you know, just accepting this is just a one part of my life. There are many other parts of my life, and if I manage this, I can still pursue other things that I want to do. Yeah, so it’s really just about accept the limitations and make the most of the rest of it. That’s that’s my way of looking at it.

Cheryl:  52:58

I love that. Yeah, it’s such a subtle shift, but it’s really about living in harmony, I would say, with your condition, rather than making your whole life revolve around like overcoming it or beating it, let’s beat arthritis versus okay, we have this. We can live with it, you know.

Sarah:  53:17

And then, you were saying about lemons and lemonade. One of the things that has been amazing about, an unexpected benefit of having rheumatoid arthritis — I never thought I would say that this is a, you know, that it’s done anything good for me. But actually, one of the great things is that has been connecting with the arthritis community. There are so many lovely people. We have such a wide community people all sorts of different background, like, you know, just all sorts of different people, different ages, etc.

And just being able to meet people with that shared experience and get to know them and build relationships and friendships to the point where I’ve even been able to set up a business, you know, to serve this community. I mean, that’s been one of the nicest things, you know, just a really positive, unexpected benefit. And, you know, I am honestly just pretty grateful that I also live in a time when I can access a lot of treatments and medications, I’m grateful that I get to do that. And so, you know, there are some, some really nice sides to it, you know. I think I really do appreciate a lot of stuff now that I used to take for granted before I was diagnosed, you know. So, yeah, there’s some good stuff in there, too.

Cheryl:  54:40

Definitely. I relate to everything you said, especially the community. I’m yeah, like, who, I’m wondering, yeah, what kind of connections would I be making if I didn’t have this condition? You know, I still have a great social life, but so many amazing people through, you know, advocacy, patient education support. I mean, there’s just been, really, I just got, I’m, you know, I just got back a couple days ago from the Healthy Voices Conference, which was brought people together from different disability communities. And it’s just been, yeah, I’ve completely, I’m feeling that, feeling the chronic illness community love right now. Is there anything else you want to share that we didn’t touch on?

Sarah:  55:24

Well, let me just have a quick think. Hold on, one moment. No worries. Ah, there is, yeah. Okay. One I’m going to go back to Grace & Able and ask your audience for support. So, one of the things that’s really important to us at Grace & Able is, you know, our mission is to empower people living with arthritis and other chronic health conditions. And so, everything we do, we really like to talk to people in the community about what they want. So, everything we do, even down to when we choose our colors, we don’t just randomly pick a color. We ask people, what colors would you like, and things like that.

So, we always want to talk to people, and we talk to people day in and day out. So, my request is, if there’s any products that you’re interested in, or any feedback about our existing products, or anything you see that we’re doing that you think, you know what, that’s great. But what I’d really like is this, or, you know what, they do this and I’m not so crazy about it, I would love to hear from you. I would love to hear from people who want to share their comments and feedbacks with us, because the more I listen to people in the community, the more we can make products that are going to, you know, have a positive impact. So, that’s my request. Yeah.

Cheryl:  56:44

And how can they do that?

Sarah:  56:45

Oh, yeah, good point. So, probably the easiest way is to email us, actually, so you can email support, S-U-P-P-O-R-T, @graceandable.com and, yeah, all emails get picked up, and I see them all. So, yeah.

Cheryl:  57:07

That’s perfect, and I love that. And where can people find you online?

Sarah:  57:13

So, Grace & Able at graceandable.com G-R-A-C-E-A-N-D-A-B-L-E, and then we’re also on Instagram and Facebook.

Cheryl:  57:24

Yeah, I love it. Perfect. I’m these are all going in the show notes too. But yeah, I always have people say it out loud in case they’re someone’s like, at their phone. Just wanting to just look it up while they’re I do that sometimes, if I’m listening, like, and I’m like, oh, I don’t want to — I’m fully launched or something, and grab my phone, I want to just, like, type it in and just follow the person. So, yeah, well, it’s been, it’s really cool. Like, I’m feeling very nostalgic, because, like, back to, you know, when we first talked. To give you a shout out, thanking you for your patience, because again, you were the very first interview I did, and I set up the audio recorder incorrectly, and so we had to do the whole thing again.

Sarah:  58:04

[Laughs] I didn’t mind.

Cheryl:  58:06

Yeah. We went, okay, that’s like the first pancake. Got that one out. Yeah. Now it’s easier. Even though we only live about our away from each other, it’s sometimes easier, just like, for both of us to just do it over Zoom, just because, like you were talking about earlier, the energy levels and stuff. But also, you don’t have to worry. At least Zoom has been very, knock on wood, reliable for me, like it doesn’t — it always records the audio. So, but, you know, on the bigger level, it’s been really cool to see, you know, Grace & Able at that point where we talked in 2019 was just, was an idea, and now it’s like, this product that’s impacting so many people’s lives positively. And same with me, with Arthritis Life, this idea that gonna have this kind of talk show, which I thought was gonna mostly be education on YouTube, and then been able to turn it into, like, the Rheum to THRIVE, you know, self-management program, yeah, it’s great. It’s been really cool. So, it’s like, I’m very — we should both take a moment to pat ourselves on the back for doing a good job.

Sarah:  59:03

Okay, I’ll pat you. There you go, yeah. Because that’s, yeah, but it’s great. And I think — oh, whoops, sorry. I just accidentally clicked on there. But the last thing I was going to say about that is that one thing I like about this stuff is that there are so many people who have these problems, not just in arthritis community, but I see in wider disability community, where people are saying, you know what, I need this thing. And nobody else is solving it. So, I’m going to go and solve it myself. And when I look at what you’ve done with Arthritis Life, that’s very much in that vein. You know, we want more education out there and more information, I’m gonna go and make that happen. So, yeah, love it.

Cheryl:  59:44

Thank you. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, literally, the inspiration for the Rheum to THRIVE, like the self-paced course, is like that pamphlet. The pamphlet is just — and the surprise is, like, that live support along with it. But yeah, you can’t, you can’t educate people on how to manage this condition in like one 20-minute appointment every three months. It’s just not —

Sarah:  1:00:06

No, absolutely, no.

Cheryl:  1:00:07

I’m like, this is not, this — I don’t think I need to convince anyone that, like, the current system is working. Like, so sure, yeah, that’s my little soapbox. But no, thank you. Yeah, it’s great to be able to be part of this, you know, this rheumatoid arthritis and chronic illness community, and be able to have the, you know, to have the inspiration from each other, to go out and — oh, we also did, you know, the Arthritis Life Hack Extravaganza. I should put it in the show notes, too, which was really fun, and it’s kind of morphed over the years, but I’ll put a link to that, and who knows, we may, yeah, our initial, it was all online. Maybe one day we’ll do some sort of in-person expo, which would be super cool.

Sarah:  1:00:52

Oh, I would love to go. That would be a whole other thing. But, yeah, but yeah, seriously, I think having some sort of in-person thing would be fantastic, especially now with coming on the, you know, the other side of the pandemic, and it’s a lot easier. Well, easier, not for everyone, but for people.

Cheryl:  1:01:08

Yes, yeah. Well, we are no shortage of ideas, shortage on time, and all of the ideas. But thank you so much again. I hope everyone checks out, you know, all the awesome work Grace & Able is doing, especially, you know, as both a patient, but also as an occupational therapist, I think it’s just, it’s great that you took this on, because I think a lot of OT’s and PT’s recognize that there’s a problem, but we’re like, oh, but it’s like, too hard to get into the medical device market. Or like, oh, well, I don’t have time to find a better solution. Yeah, wow, you know, in a way, it’s like, it’s humbling as an occupational therapist to be like, look, it took a patient to go out there and do this like you guys didn’t, or we as a community didn’t meet the needs of the — that should have been, quote unquote, like, I feel like I that should have been available to you. You know what I mean, but the fact that it wasn’t, and the fact that you went out and made, like, you made the solution that you wanted to see. That’s just a — it’s just awesome. But I also think it’s like providers should take it, should take note of that, right? That patients aren’t happy with just like ugly crap that you’re throwing at them.

Sarah:  1:02:15

No, no.

Cheryl:  1:02:18

Why are we —? Is anyone surprised? Sorry. Okay, another rant. Well, newsflash, people like wearing things that are comfortable and don’t look ugly.

Sarah:  1:02:27

Yeah, and, you know, there is, the great thing is that, you know, there are so many people who are doing this. I’m not the only person who’s addressing this issue. Definitely, you know, starting to see, you know, across, like, I say, different conditions. We are starting to see so many of these small businesses that are coming at this and saying, “Hey, I don’t like this thing. I’m going to make something that’s better.” And, you know, one of the big examples of that, obviously, is, you know, with adaptive clothing. That’s really come on a huge way. So, I think we’re going to start seeing more and more of this. And, you know, I’d really love us to get to a place where, you know, going to get your disability products, I’m just going to call that broad term, you know, you’re going to get the kind of quality and selection that you might get for any other kind of product that’s a consumer product. Just because it’s medical doesn’t mean it doesn’t have to, you know, there’s no reason for it not to be attractive and comfortable. It’s just silly. It’s not, you know.

Cheryl:  1:03:35

That’s a beautiful note to end on. Yes, I can hear your adorable dog.

Sarah:  1:03:39

Oh, she’s shuffling around.

Cheryl:  1:03:41

No, no, I’m not saying that a bad way. There’s all these funny videos online of people like, the dogs have started figuring out, right, like when we’re wrapping up meetings, like they’re so observant, like they know the kind of intonations. Well, now Teddy’s fast asleep, because he’s a sleepy guy, but yeah, I love, I can hear, I don’t know, I can hear your pup. So, thank you so much. I can’t wait to get this out and celebrate, you know, celebrate all the awesome work you’re doing, and we’ll see you on — what’s 143 plus 2? See you on Episode 286!

Sarah:  1:04:16

Wow. [Laughs] Well, thanks for having me on again, Cheryl. I really appreciate it, and it’s lovely to catch up. All right. Thank you. Bye!